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Lukar82394 June 05, 2008, 01:45 AM In my opinion, they should remake OoT on the Wii. It could have options for Wiimote, Wiimote and Nunchuk, and GameCube controls (And in commemoration, make a special N64 controller for the Wii), and have graphics atleast slightly greater than TP's, as well as have more items, more side-quests, and a longer story.
William Blakeley June 05, 2008, 03:27 AM An excellent piece, TSA. I've read a lot of this type of articles, at all sorts of times over the years, and this is probably the best one I've seen. I'm glad you haven't truly left us!
I personally would like a reboot, too, with some new elements that are core to the games that they are in. For example, the mini-games like snowboarding and fishing were nice, but making different gameplay mechanics like that have a bigger part of the story would be beneficial for the story, I think. More character development, too, would be great, and a complete removal of the damsel-in-distress aspect of Zelda's character. Perhaps a game where you co-operate with Zelda for most of a game would be good, and the aspects where she's supposed to be better than Link (wisdom) should shine through. It could either have co-operative multiplayer, be a single player tag-team (à la RE0), or just focus on Link, and command Zelda in other ways (à la RE4). I have more ideas, but won't bore you with them. (I will point out that Nintendo prefers to have one voice actor for a single character for their major franchises. I played Japanese Mario & Sonic, and Sonic's characters all talk in Japanese and sound different to (and cooler than) their English voice actors, but all of Nintendo's characters had the same, English actors. Unless there are some great bilingual actors out there, I think Nintendo would like to keep at least Link and Zelda's voices to short grunts.) So, Lukar82394, it sounds like you want... Twilight Princess. But with the option to use outdated control options (GC), controls that oversimplify the game (Wiimote only), and the worst controller Nintendo ever released (N64). Other than that, it sounds like everything you want IS Twilight Princess! Or otherwise, OoT on the Virtual Console! Let me clarify: The N64 controller wasn't so bad if you used the analogue stick plus buttons combination, but how many games had you using the other schemes? Few. And did those schemes ever work well? Not particularly. The controller was good, but it was still the worst Nintendo's ever released, for those reasons. Komodo_Zero June 05, 2008, 07:04 AM For remaking OoT, I say they should do it as a side project rather than a main one. It's not as hard to remake a game than it is to make a new one from scratch. Also, an OoT remake is in a way a vey plausible prediction, as it is the game's 10th anniversary this year.
And Lukar82394, the term remake does not mean to change the game. Altering things like the story would change the game, not remake it. Sure, adding new sections to the game won't hurt, just so long as they do't intefere with the main plot. Sort of like the bonus dungeo in the GBA aLttP remake. Ian "Archaic Sage" Brown June 05, 2008, 10:20 AM I have to disagree that Zelda needs a "reboot". It would mean complicating the series even moreso than what it is now.
What Zelda needs is a game that no only delivers the freedom to complete dungeons in any almost any order (LoZ), but it also needs to have a very complicated backstory that's actually revealed to us, bit by bit and utilises the many possibility that all of the games have had, but always leave behind. There are many people out there who want to know the backstory to what that little offshoot was in TP which looked like it could've been Kakariko Village from OoT. People want to know more of a backstory to Midna's clan, people want to see the townsfolk of Hyrule Castle interacting with each other, and they each have their own little story. What it comes down to is that Zelda needs to pull the quality of OoT, the free-roam of LoZ, the difficulty of AoL/ALttP and then give it a huge backstory that would rival LotR or Harry Potter and actually explain some of the history sot a degree of detail. Sure not everyone wants that, but there are hundreds of thousands of fans out there who like finding those little side-quests and heart string pulls that MM had. Giving the characters a voice is something that I would be so far against it's unreal. Voice Acting is rarely good in videogames, and it'll never be localised correctly, which means that the UK would end up with some cross between a US/Canadian actor (whoever's cheaper [ala anime]) and the rest of Europe would suffer a huge timelag whilst recording the reams of text. Not to mention that it'll have to have subtitles anyway as it'd be discriminating against deaf people, which is illegal in the UK. Further, moving the plot away from Ganondorf/Triforce wouldn't necessarily make the game any better, it would simply be a slightly different plot with new characters. Ultimately MM wasn't that much different as you had to battle Majora's Mask, which was a magical mask. I think that Ganondorf and the Triforce is well welcome in all Zelda games, but they need to either be given more prominence (like they were in OoT), or they need to be alluded to but actually have another enemy throughout the majority of the game (ala TP) and then are seen towards the end. Or never seen at all and only implied. Any form of implication in Zelda leads to a possible sequel, or it leads to total desecration of Hyrule, which would be a great indicator of timeline for many fans of the series. Personally, I think we need to see Link die or loose, or both. That would be a huge change for the series. I was hoping for that emo death of Link in TP, but it never happened  .Wise Link June 05, 2008, 11:54 AM I have to agree with William Blakeley TSA, excellent article as always. The main things I believe the next Zelda should have are orchestrated music, voice acting, and an all new deep and intriguing story. The orchestrated music is an obvious must that I'm sure few would be opposed to. Voice acting should be given to every character (I personally wouldn't be opposed to Link being given a voice) as it really enriches the overall experience of the game (also I have to disagree with Archaic Sage as I believe voice acting has been done very well in video games before and the Zelda series should be no exception). The story should be something completely new as the Zelda being kidnapped/Ganon being the main enemy/get three items then the Master Sword thing is REALLY getting old. They should however have little references to previous games that remind us that were are still playing a Zelda game.
As far as whether the franchise needs a reboot however I think it depends on if the timeline is hurting Nintendo's ability to take the story in the direction they want to. It could be argued that way they have it right now it is limiting them to an extent but if they can get around it and still be able to make the game they want to it shouldn't be that much of a problem. No matter how the new Zelda turns out though as long as Nintendo can capture that same old Zelda feel and combine it with some new things that are refreshing to the series (such as the ones I pointed out but also whatever else the geniuses at Nintendo can come up with) I think most fans will be satisfied with the end result. Wind June 05, 2008, 12:23 PM They seriously need to make better games than Link's crossbow training. Nintendo was depending on fan's love of all things zelda to get that game. I don't know anyone who has it. We need another Ocarina of Time.
Okoa June 05, 2008, 02:33 PM I have it. It's actually a very fun game, and surprisingly the only game that works real well with the Wii Zapper (the two other rail shooters I have control better without it). By no means should it count as TP's direct sequel, but it's still a fun little diversion.
As for the rest of the Zelda series, I've never understood why the series absolutely must abolish everything about its established storyline. If you're thinking of getting rid of Ganon, the Triforce, the Master Sword, etc., why even call it a Zelda game? The only thing it would have in common with the rest of the franchise is Link and Zelda. That wouldn't feel like Zelda at all. Granted, MM did this, but that was a sequel to OoT, and from what I'm gathering, everyone here is talking about a new, original Zelda experience. However, and I'm sure this will change if Nintendo decides to do this, I'm not exactly comfortable on the idea of voice acting. The reason that all the characters are so endearing is that we as the players are supposed to fill in the characters' voices for ourselves. I mean, I like what they did with Midna; they gave her full voice acting, but it was in a whole separate language. If they do that, then I'm totally fine with it. But if they do decide to do proper voice acting and it works, then more power to them, I suppose. Really, I can only think of two games off the top of my head with hilariously awful voice acting (House of the Dead 2 and Mortal Kombat: Deception), so I can't put it past Nintendo to come up with good actors. Especially considering that the Star Fox series has always had above-average (but not perfect) voices. Well....I could probably keep going on all day, but I really don't like these little wars over the Zelda franchise. They really undermine what Zelda is all about. I mean, I like speculating and debating on where it could go, but oftentimes it turns into people saying that it MUST change or they will STOP buying the games at all costs. That's what gets aggravating for me. Komodo_Zero June 05, 2008, 05:47 PM However, and I'm sure this will change if Nintendo decides to do this, I'm not exactly comfortable on the idea of voice acting.I've nothing against it so long as Link doesn't speak. I mean, I like what they did with Midna; they gave her full voice acting, but it was in a whole separate language.That was actually random jibberish that changed every time you played the game. I'm not worried about the voice acting. Nintendo knows that the Zelda series is a serious series and will take all voice acting roles just as seriously. MRLN June 05, 2008, 06:18 PM My utter brilliance says that TSA is indeed mostly correct, and completely awesome at these articles.
My utter brilliance also says that the next Zelda simply needs a more engrossing story. They've already got the controls down: Swing remote ala Force Unleashed, move with nunchuck, Z-targeting. If they get a nice big story, the gameplay can only benefit from it. A deep story will allow for a more intriguing set of characters, items, dungeons, everything that Zelda is! You can cut the damsel in distress part, it's a Mario thing. Mario has never, ever been lauded for gripping plots. Anouma or Myamoto or whoever is directing the next Zelda should definitely put a doubly focus on story elements. Mumbo June 05, 2008, 06:59 PM I thought that the divergence between Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass was a good move by Nintendo. North America is a real console market, and Twilight Princess's style really catered toward a North American audience. Japan is a real handheld market, and Phantom Hourglass's style really catered toward the Japanese audience. They went for their strengths in that regard, IMO. I think a similar approach in the future would be pretty good.
I agree that they should start a new timeline. Make them in order from now on, or if you're making a prequel, make it clear which game it goes before. It's not that hard. Or start a new timeline that's in the same continuity but WAY later or WAY earlier than any of the existing games.Just find a way to climb out of this dreck that the series timeline is in right now. Before that, though, they should release some sort of book or even some little insert or something that explains the old timeline. Give the old fans of it some closure at least. Seriously, a book or manga series or little insert DVD that explained the timeline would sell. Fans would buy it, I guarantee. They've been begging for something like that. It's true that a more in-depth story would be great, and they do seem to be heading somewhat in that direction. And I think a less rigid system of dungeons is in order. Let the game areas spill into each other and overlap. Make exploring more natural. The worlds are a little two isolated and standalone right now. And while it's fine having characters return, let's see them doing somethhing different. They're always in the same roles. Let's toss things up a bit. I agree with having more than one "Midna" or "Linebeck" type of character, too. I would hate if Zelda went off into MMORPG land or something like that though. No leveling up systems, at least not conventional RPG ones - I find those tiring. I don't want to level grind - required grinding is the lowest form of gameplay to me and it's lazy, despicable, and completely ruins the flow of a game. What matters the most is execution. New elements are needed, yes, but they're only good if they're executed right. If they're done wrong it only worsens the game. It's about time Nintendo took the chance on voice work, even for Link himself, and Nintendo can do it well - see Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn.I have to disagree with this part because Fire Emblem's voice work is horrendous. But yeah, I'm sure we'll get voice acting soon. That's not something I would worry about. That and orchestrated music are the way of the future and we'll get there. Just do it well please. Nintendo's got lots of money, so break out the big budget. Voice acting isn't a real make-or-break type of deal for me though. I could live fine without it. Shin Illuminated June 05, 2008, 07:11 PM It doesn't matter what happens in the next Zelda...someone's gonna cry about it anyway.
Okoa June 05, 2008, 07:13 PM It doesn't matter what happens in the next Zelda...someone's gonna cry about it anyway. A very good point. It always happens like that. MRLN June 05, 2008, 08:00 PM But we'd better make sure it's not me doing the crying.
Henrie June 05, 2008, 08:03 PM "instead of focusing on outdoing Ocarina of Time, they should have been considering how to go beyond Ocarina of Time to deliver a different, unique experience that perhaps can't be equally measured with Ocarina of Time, but rather is a masterpiece in its own right"
I totally agree. When I saw the first Tp trailer I thought: They are trying to surpass Oot. And later nintendo admitted that it was their goal. But at the end it didn't really work for me. One thing is for sure: We will never get a difficult zelda again, and we will never get a zelda that gives you as much freedom as Oot. In fact, if you look to all zelda's the first 2 had the most freedom. Maybe a bit to much. As for the story and timeline: Nintendo doesn't care about story that much, and Tp proves to me that there is no timeline at all. At nintendo it is always first gameplay, then story. So that means if Aonouma gets a vision of Link as a fish, the game will be set under water. And that's no lie! I found Tp a bit dissapointing, but I loved Phantom hourglass. It had the same cool graphical style from Windwaker, but at the same time felt fresh because of the new controls. And those controls worked very fine. I think the next zelda will be 2d, with a new graphical style and controls a la Zack and wiki. I am very sure that the next zelda won't be like Tp, but maybe that style will return in the future. Speaking of the future: I am not against a sci-fi zelda. But it should have it's own style. Earlier I said: Let link pilot a spaceship called Epona, and let him travel between a Goron planet, Zora planet, etc. But now I think it should be more original. It should not be a Starwars clone. I love Starwars, but a sci-fi zelda should be different. And one last thing about the graphics: The new Zelda should really look as good or maybe even better then Mario galaxy. It's really a big shame that all new wii games (yes, even games from nintendo themself) are below the graphical quality of Mario galaxy. That said: I would be very dissapointed if nintendo wouldn't show a single game at this years E3 that surpasses Mario galaxy (graphicaly wise) at all. Mario galaxy showed that graphics quite above gamecube-level are possible on wii. So do it again, nintendo! Dr. Demento June 05, 2008, 09:10 PM I feel that future Zelda games will accomplish Nintendo's goal
Lance9384 June 05, 2008, 09:36 PM To the first comment, I say OoT ihas had eough of re-releasing for now. I think Majora's Mask should get some lovin'.
Santuli June 06, 2008, 01:46 PM I dont think a reboot would be a good idea. It would indeed make the series more complicated than it already is, and, like you said, all the timeline-addicts would be very very pissed at that. Nah, I like your idea of trying to make the timeline more concrete better. Its not impossible. Remember when people argued over the significance of OoT's time travelling? How some thought the timeline was linear and others thought it split?
Nintendo fixed that. They made the placement of a few games a sure thing and they confirmed that the timeline split. We've also found out that they have kept a document with a gajillion of connections between each game, so maybe they HAVE been working on fixing the story. As for gameplay...I can't really predict anything. I usually mention the gripes I have about the regular gameplay that is part of the structured formula, like difficulty or linearity or predictability. But... Quote But primarily, the fact remains that Zelda is a traditional, classic series that hasn't adapted to change very well. Phantom Hourglass may have sold exceptionally well with all-stylus controls, but the fundamental gameplay was identical to 2D Zelda, and thus other than the stylus control, nothing was radically altered. The same goes for Twilight Princess on Wii. However, drastically changing the gameplay has resulted in harsh reactions. Zelda II: The Adventure of Link, though a commercial success, still to this day gets hammered for its side-scrolling and action-oriented gameplay. Four Swords and Four Swords Adventures get bashed for their multiplayer aspects, and the Oracle titles. Just changing the visual style in The Wind Waker drew severe backlash from both critics and the fans. Even the Wii and stylus controls for Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass met with some harsh criticism. As long as there is enough of the "expected, traditional" content, the title performs well. When the title is perceived as too different or too radical, it meets with skepticism and often performs poorly in terms of sales and reception. Drastically altering the gameplay hasnt resulted well, right? Well, keeping a lot of what made previous games great hasnt either, if we look at OoT. The Zelda fanboys are too undecided on what THEY want. The general consensus always seems to change, constantly, and change their views so that they end up contradicting what they previously felt. OoT was once a clone of ALttP. Now its TP thats the clone and everyone has forgotten about ALttP. TP is gonna be great, it has a lot of nostalgia factors that reminds us of OoT, and it goes back to the classic formula! Oh wait, its too similar to OoT, so its a piece of s*** now. I really dont care anymore about what the Zelda fanboys think. Like you said, no Zelda game has been bad. They're all good games, even the multiplayer ones are at least decently ok. I'm sure the next game will be a little less orthodox because it seems that its about time the formula changes. I didnt use to believe the franchise has become a bit stale, and that was back when TP had barely come out and you wrote an article on it in TheHylia. But now...it did take me some time, and I admit I usually am one of the last to figure out the flaws in Zelda. I think Nintendo is aware of this, and PH's style of gameplay might be a hint that they are trying to change it (or it might be a hint that casual is taking over...I hope its the former) lurch028 June 06, 2008, 02:58 PM just pointing out the tingle game wasnt only japan... i have a rom on my ds in english; i think its from england.
as for the article i think they should quit trying to make it better by chnging everything we all love... i would like to see a new storyline but set in the same time period and layout as OOT. maybe expand the map a little let you venture past the desert and death mountain or something but keep the land the same; or do something from calatia or north castle Santuli June 06, 2008, 03:43 PM ROMs dont count....they're illegal <_<
You want to change everything we love AND keep the same map as OoT...well thats not contradictory in the least...:p Ian Brown June 06, 2008, 04:15 PM Tingle RPG came out as a standard game in Europe.
Henrie June 06, 2008, 08:45 PM That's right, I have it too. It's not that great though. It's mostly about guessing how much you have to pay, or guessing about how much someone wants to give you. And when you have a big bunch of rupees throwing them in the well, so that the tower rises. I give you one tedious example: I guessed that someone would give me 2000 rupees, while later I read on the internet that he would pay 5000 rupees. Result: I have to slave away for ages before I have enough money to rise the tower again. That's also the point where I stopped playing for now.
lurch028 June 06, 2008, 10:42 PM "You want to change everything we love AND keep the same map as OoT...well thats not contradictory in the least...:p"
i said they should QUIT trying to make it better by changing the stuff we like... i wasnt being contradictory you just misunderstood Samuel71 June 06, 2008, 11:25 PM I consider Twilight Princess to be the best game in the series, and I realize that's a rather uncommon opinion among those who have played through most or all of games in the Zelda franchise. I just don't see the franchise as stale, and I wouldn't have any fears about Zelda's future if not for...
Phantom Hourglass. Playing this game has really jarred me. TSA stated that their are no truly bad Zelda games, but I disagree. I don't like anything about this pathetic excuse for a Zelda game, and it makes me scared that the next Zelda game on Wii will be a casual, emotionless game made for an audience that I am not part of. I also don't think that motion control fits with a game like Zelda, but there's no chance in hell that Nintendo won't stuff the next game with motion control stuff. thelegendofmeh June 07, 2008, 04:44 AM I consider Twilight Princess to be the best game in the series, and I realize that's a rather uncommon opinion among those who have played through most or all of games in the Zelda franchise. I just don't see the franchise as stale, and I wouldn't have any fears about Zelda's future if not for... I agree in most of what you say ( especially about TP being my favorite game) but i actually liked Phantom Hourglass, not the best Zelda out there *far from good* but it was amusing and let's hope the next Zelda won't be oriented to casuals that would be a shame Santuli June 07, 2008, 12:56 PM Oh yea I did. I thought you mean that they should quit trying to make Zelda better by doing what you said, like you were suggesting them changing everything. Nevermind then.
I still thought PH was a very fun game. Yes, not the best Zelda, but I did not think it was a bad game at all. lefthandedlink June 07, 2008, 01:40 PM I agree with what you said earlier, San.
It's just that no one's satisfied anymore on anything. It's sad, but it's the truth. Is there ever a way to create a game that uses elements from previous games YET is totally different? Isn't that what Majora's Mask did? I don't think there's much to complain about Majora's Mask... Okoa June 07, 2008, 01:42 PM Yeah, I don't hear a whole lot of complaining about Majora's Mask. I guess that's what people want from Zelda, I suppose. Maybe TP's sequel will be something to that effect. But even if it isn't, I'm still gonna play and enjoy the games.
Ikou June 07, 2008, 04:49 PM Ditto Okoa.
IMO (and I don't know if anyone's already said this, since those posts were freakin' LONG! And so many, too!), they should do something like OoT and MM, but make it fresh. Somehow. Brawl did it perfectly. It's the same as Melee, but it feels so different and fresh. Know what I mean? Legolastom June 07, 2008, 11:35 PM Voice acting in video games is great. Just not in Japanese ones. As for the Zelda franchise well... if they could somehow manage to make Zelda a bit more like an Elder scrolls game that would be great, now that I think about it Majoras Mask does remind me of the radient AI used in Oblivion.
But anyway remember back when we all saw the first videos of Twilight princess? We thought we would be running through forest, exploring caves and... saving cats but alas, what I want is for Nintendo to focus on making it more like an RPG rather than an action game that is set in a fantasy setting. Also Brawl... dont talk to me about Brawl. D3stiny_Sm4sher June 08, 2008, 11:07 AM Just because a game removes certain elements from its STORY that have always been around, that doesn't mean it won't be like a Zelda game. Look at the Paper Mario games -- they totally feel like Mario but feel, play, and narrate completely differently. They choose to maintain certain aspects that make it feel Mario while doing away with and replacing many others which make it feel distinct and unique, too.
I would love to see the Zelda series do something completely different like that, even it was considered a spin-off. Four Swords was kind of like that, and it was interesting, but still didn't change ENOUGH for me. Hell, after seeing that video of Half Life 2 with Alex replaced by Zelda, that only makes me realize how much fun a Zelda game in which Link and Zelda cooperate through most of it would be AWESOME, an idea I have been wanting for years. I like how so many people want to see OoT remade -- um, why? Wouldn't that do exactly what we're trying to avoid? Santuli June 08, 2008, 11:41 AM Yes it would Eddy. TP was criticized for being so much like OoT (like I've said before), and now people want OoT remade? Point?
MM was not long enough, we've been over this. It was perfect in almost every other way, but it was a very short game. Like TSA said, graphically the franchise has never pushed boundaries (TP would have for the GC, but it came a little late I guess). And VO would be good in the next one as well. More RPG-like? I'm not sure what Zelda is right now, but I WOULD like to see a more action-oriented one. OoT was, I think, more exploration and puzzle solving. TP emphasized swordfighting more, but it still iddnt do it for me. I think it would be cool to see a Zelda that is more action-driven, with cool sword techniques like in TP, but cooler and more useful (meaning AI of enemies is better). And give Boss fights a SotC feel to them, that would be cool too. I dont know there's so many ways the next game can go. It can be a darker, creepier game, or one more epic than TP, or more action, or more RPG elements, or more story, etc... I really hope they tell us SOMETHING at E3 so the real speculation can begin already ^_^ FDLink June 08, 2008, 12:08 PM You know, I think it's good that the series is kind of on hold, right now. TSA was right about the saturation, for sure.
But as for where the series can go from here, I think I would be in favor of a return to the Zelda II-style emphasis on action, combat, spells, and experience-building. A reworking of the dungeon system is also in order, I think, or perhaps an all-new alternative to the dungeon system. Nintendo also needs to take a page from the likes of Assassin's Creed and Grand Theft Auto 4. You know, large streaming overworlds, building climbing, rooftop-hopping, stealth, NPC interaction, etc. All of these features were things I had always dreamed would be incorporated into Twilight Princess when it was being developed, but unfortunately the game had nothing of their sort, which frankly left it feeling quite antiquated. Santuli June 08, 2008, 01:07 PM There was some rooftop hoping in kakariko, but I liked that in OoT's Kakariko more.
We had stealth in TWW, and it was fun, but being stealthy wasnt this Link's style, was it? He was more up in your face. NPC interaction could have been better, true. And streaming worlds...I dont know what that means. Much of Hyrule was connected together. True, not all of it. Maybe next time most of it will be connected fully, ot at least the biggest portion of it. I can understand some places being out of reach, like the desert and Snowpeak in TP, or the towns. I think there should have been a way in and out of Lake Hylia that didnt involve warping or Cuccoo flying (although that was cool). I was hoping for a cliffside path up and down the Lake or something. ZentendoUser June 08, 2008, 04:19 PM Ocarina of Time is the single most overrated pile of feces in the gaming industry.
Okoa June 08, 2008, 04:25 PM Ocarina of Time is the single most overrated pile of feces in the gaming industry. See, this is why I and many others avoid these discussions. They stop becoming discussions and turn into flame wars, all because of comments like this. ZentendoUser June 08, 2008, 04:47 PM Long answer:
The fanbase will never be satisfied with Zelda. It's not like Mario, where players for the most part have reasonable expectations, focusing on gameplay and level design above all else. (Although now that Mario Galaxy was released with such an excellent soundtrack, the bar has obviously been raised in the audio department for future Mario titles -- and even major Nintendo releases in general.) Zelda fanboys whine about story, about linearity, about NPC interaction, about atmosphere...about every aspect of the game one can think of. It's simply unrealistic to expect a game to be flawless in every possible category, and most of which whose evaluation is wholly subjective. The fact that there are a lot of Ocarina of Time fanboys is in no way an indication of the title's true quality. The only reason it has such a vocal fanbase is that it serves as a rose-tinted-nostalgia-goggles favorite evoking fond childhood memories for many Zelda fans. And these fans, most of whom are in the 14-19 age group, happen to be dominating online communities at the moment. It is for this reason that this game will never be beaten in their eyes, as nostalgia plays a significant role in clouding players' judgments. If you look back at Ocarina, you'll realize that the gameplay and level design are dated, the controls are wonky and far less fluid than their modern counterparts, and the story is shallow and clichéd. For me, Twilight was the pinnacle of the franchise. At the very least, the dungeons were incredibly varied and well-designed, and the gameplay was top-notch. Maybe it didn't have as many sidequests as The Wind Waker, or maybe it wasn't as atmospheric as Majora's. However, when you look at the game as a whole, at what it's accomplished in each of the various areas that fans and critics look for, it's clearly the most well-rounded of any installment in the series so far. After all, IGN, EGM, 1UP, Game Informer, CVG and numerous other big-name critics have proclaimed it as the "best Zelda game ever," and I really can't disagree. Okoa June 08, 2008, 05:17 PM Well, you do have a good point, in that Zelda fans will never be happy, no matter what's released in the future. And Zelda seems to be the only franchise I've noticed to have such a controversy from the fans. I've never understood why, really.
And yes, it is true that much of Ocarina's quality comes from its nostalgia factor, but if you think about it, every game is like that. For example, when Super Metroid was released on the VC, I immediately bought it because I kept hearing awesome things about it. When I played it, though, it wasn't as special as I was expecting, but that's probably because it was considered hugely influential at the time of its release, and it was on later Metroid titles. But nowadays, like Ocarina of Time, it seems overshadowed by its cousins on the GBA, who both have superior graphics and controls. But again, I really do agree that Twilight Princess is one of the best titles in the series; ironically, it's also one of the more hated ones in the "hardcore" Zelda community. In fact, I think it was right after TP's release when the fanboys began aggressively debating and showing concern about its future. ZentendoUser June 08, 2008, 07:56 PM I think it's because everyone focuses on something different. Everyone has a unique interpretation for what makes a Zelda game, and this is simply a consequence of the series' breadth and scope. Take a Mario game: no one ever plays it for the story. No one ever plays it to meet characters. Therefore, its fanbase is a lot easier to satisfy.
MM and TWW were responsible for slicing up the fanbase. After they were released, people started screaming for an OoT-style sequel. Now that the OoT2 fans have gotten what they wanted -- for the most part -- the innovation people are pissed off and screaming about wanting Zelda games to evolve. They are not necessarily the same folks, and you can't really generalise and call them out for being hypocritical. In the end, the nostalgia-ridden retrogamers are the biggest detriment to the gaming industry, because they are impossible to satisfy and the developers have to deal with their complaints after every new release. These people will never be happy no matter how much you innovate, or how much you refine the formulae of their childhood favourites. These people might as well just play their N64s and SNESes forever or quit gaming altogether. Santuli June 08, 2008, 08:38 PM Wow, from ZU's first post I wouldnt have thought I would agree with him...but I do. So very very much. I've just never been able to express what he said so easily like that.
I mean, I dont think OoT is "the single most overrated pile of feces in the gaming industry", but everything about the second post is so true, I think. Touche my friend, touche. FDLink June 08, 2008, 10:49 PM Nostalgia is a factor, but you could never rightfully call one of the greatest games in history a "pile of feces." OoT still stands as one of the most revolutionary and influential games ever conceived, and many games we play today probably wouldn't be here without it. Just because other games have since built upon and improved upon it, that's no excuse to compare OoT to excrement.
 By the way, TP's dungeons are hardly the series' pinnacle. Save a few, they were (aesthetically and technically) the most basic, uninspired and derivative dungeons in the series. They blatantly borrowed from OoT at several points (*cough* poe fire) if I recall. To put it simply: OoT is Raiders of the Lost Ark. TP is Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. Ian Brown June 09, 2008, 03:03 AM Ocarina of Time is only good because of nostalgia? Look at the critical acclaim at the time of release, look at the continual critical acclaim after release. Ocarina of Time was still being hailed as the best game of all time five years, an entire generation after release. Twilight Princess is being called a failure by many Zelda fans now, and we're still on the same generation. If many of us were to go back and play Twilight Princess again, on the whole, it wouldn't stand up to Ocarina of Time for very simple reasons:
Linearity Replayability Level design That's it. Twilight Princess is a game that could've been stunning, but it was rushed out. There were so many angles that the game could've been improved on, it's just ridiculous how many loose ends the game contained. Furthermore, Zelda games aren't Mario. On the whole, Mario is is a washed out and diluted series, similar to Sonic. You don't expect great games out of the franchise unless it's once a generation, and even then you're really lucky. None of the 3D Mario games have stood the test of time, and the Paper Mario series is currently it's saving grace as SMG was good, but one good game in about ten years isn't good enough. Whereas Zelda is a legacy game, it's always been held in high esteem and is promoted as a "legendary" game. Therefore the quality needs to tally with the promotion, otherwise overhype occurs and fans moan - ala Twilight Princess. Finally, some of you guys need to look further afield for communities with similar trends to Zelda. Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy and even the Ganbare Goemon series complain about level linearity, atmosphere, NPC and basically everything to a degree. The top end franchises in every company have to be top quality, and the fans demand this. ZentendoUser June 09, 2008, 05:42 AM OoT had virtually zero competition when it was released. It's not like reviewers had many games to compare it to at the time, so obviously, its scores were somewhat inflated. The GameCube port, released in 2002, has a GameRankings critic average of 89.7%, which is certainly not "best of all time" material. In fact, numerous Zelda fans, myself included, felt OoT had been dethroned as soon as Majora's Mask was released in 2000.
Your arguments are generic and flimsy. OoT was every bit as linear as TP. If you don't count the numerous game-breaking glitches due to shitty programming, OoT had only one possible dungeon sequence except Shadow/Spirit, which could be done in either order. That was it. You had no other flexibility otherwise. The whole adult quest was a boring, linear dungeon crawl which paled in comparison to TP's. Some fans complained about the apparent lack of material in between the Mirror Shard dungeons, but that was only relative to the Tears of Light quests. There was more to do between Lakebed and Arbiter's, or between Snowpeak and Temple of Time than there was between any two of OoT's adult dungeons, optional sidequests aside. And as expected, the OoT fanboys are too blinded by their rose-tinted nostalgia goggles to realise the hypocrisy in their complaints about TP. As for replayability? OoT's cutscenes get old by your third playthrough. Personally, I have neither the time nor the patience to watch a combined 3 hours of cutscenes that I've already seen. It doesn't help that OoT's story wasn't exactly Oscar-caliber material, either. At least TP's designers had the decency to let you skip its cinematics on subsequent playthroughs so you could focus entirely on its gameplay. The five-minute intro with the Great Deku Tree and Navi, along with the ten-minute "history of Hyrule" lesson after the first dungeon, have eliminated any desire I'd have to replay OoT for a second time. OoT's levels consisted of repetitive puzzles involving block-pushing, torch-lighting, and switch shooting. That is your definition of good design? Are you kidding me? By the time I had reached the adult quest, I was sick of those "puzzles" because I felt they had been recycled ad nauseum, not to mention that they hardly required any thinking. (See an unlit torch? Time to use that Deku Stick/Din's Fire/Fire Arrow!) In TP, the first block-pushing puzzle didn't happen until Snowpeak Ruins, halfway through the game. In contrast to OoT's mindless and generic block pushing, TP's puzzles were actually strategic and required thinking a la Sokoban. On the other hand, we were able to walk on magnetic ceilings, ride spinners along twisting rails, and fly through the air like Spiderman via double clawshots. Since when did OoT ever offer this much variety? I stand by my original comments. Try to come up with a better argument next time. D3stiny_Sm4sher June 09, 2008, 06:45 AM Ohhhh, how I love how jaded and cynical gamers have become in recent years.
I must admit, to a degree, I kinda agree with a lot he says, which creeps me out because I usually feel like he's just being negative for the sake of doing so. Actually, this might very well be the case...But I still agree with a lot of that, to a point. I've said it before, I'll say it again -- OoT is my least favorite 3D Zelda. I certainly RESPECT it for establishing a lot of ground and being revolutionary and all that, but I really don't like it compared to the other ones. Oh, it has Malon, though.  I do like that. TourianTourist June 09, 2008, 08:17 AM We all know, the Zelda team will give up on the Zelda franchise, because there's no point in continuing the series, when everybody is just complaining about it. Instead they will concentrate their efforts in a more beneficial franchise: "Link's something". After the super-smash-hit "Link's Crossbow Training", they're working on the next unbelieveable installment of the Link's something series, "Link's Fishing Adventure". Discover a large world, containing lots of lakes, rivers, ponds and a fishing village, where Link can sell his caught fish to get rupees. With the rupees he can rent boats or buy new lures and empty bottles. Will he eventually catch the legendary Hylian Loach? ... Hey, wait... that doesn't even sound too bad... xD
But nevermind, just joking. I'm personally looking foward to a second NDS Zelda. There was only a small team working on Phantom Hourglass, which put most of their efforts in the "how", which means, their focus was on the gameplay, the controls and the visual style. And I have to say, that I really liked, how all of those turned out, but the actual content of the game was lacking, as we all know. But concerning a second NDS Zelda we're actually in the same situation as before with Majora's Mask, the "how" was already done by Ocarina of Time, the major aspects of the development were put in the ideas and the results were awesome. I think, a second NDS Zelda will have to come up with good ideas too, because unlike PH the "how" is now not a criterion anymore, but the "what" is. However, concerning a new Wii Zelda, I believe everything will be about the "how" again. The Wii controls of Twilight Princess were everything, but not perfect, so I think they will experiment a lot with the actual gameplay, before they're getting started doing dungeons and that stuff. For example a First Person Zelda was discussed a lot, some things wouldn't work in that perspective, but on the other hand it would give us completely new ways of playing and experiencing Zelda. For example imagine putting a key in a keyhole and twisting it with the Wiimote ... Another possibility would be a more classic looking Zelda title released for the WiiWare system, you know in topdown perspective and all that, which of course should be released additionally to an upcoming Wii Zelda, maybe something to pass the time until the next big Zelda comes out. Here Nintendo could actually try something to please the oldskool fans. In the last years, there were always at least two teams working simultaneously on different Zelda titles (like Flagship or the team who made FSA and PH), so I see be a problem with doing a side project like that. But in the end I don't know, how the future of Zelda will look like, no one does but Nintendo. The only thing I can say, that I'm really looking foward to this year's E3. I'm a Zelda Fan for about 10 years now and it never happend in all this time, that we didn't know anything about upcoming Zelda titles. I hope, this is good sing. Santuli June 09, 2008, 08:57 AM Quote from: D3stiny_Sm4sher
That's exactly what I was thinking. I was a bit creeped out by that, and this last post of his...I still agree with it! O_O I didnt remember you didnt like OoT too much though. Personally, I also respect it a lot and I think its a great game, but I do agree with much of what ZU said. I've always said I enjoyed TP more than OoT. I think TP is underrated a lot, actually. I just realized the HUGE difference between puzzles in both games. Although, I always said TP had really good puzzles, because some people seemed to think it didnt...I said TP had the best puzzles we had seen thus far, but apparently OoT's block pushing and torch lighting was better. Its pinnacle was probably lighting 20 torches at one time to gain access to a dungeon XP Since I first played it I thought TP has a lot of variety in design and has a lot of good puzzles that in all honesty left me standing there, thinking. Some were obvious, yet you wouldnt have thought to look there (getting Master Key in Forest Temple), others were stretched out for the entirety of a dungeon (canon balls in Snowpeak), while most were just plain cool (hit the chandeliers with the Ball and Chain in Snowpeak, huge-ass Spinner rails in Arbiter's, magnetic ceilings and walls, swinging from monkey ropes, ToT in its entirety IMO, etc). Honestly, every dungeon had its own style of puzzles, and I think every dungeon had its own personality. The mood wasnt always creepy and foreboding. If you think about it, only one dungeon had a creepy atmosphere (unless you also count Palace of Twilight). No, I really think dungeons in TP were very good. My favorites so far, really. I've never enjoyed replaying dungeons so much in any other Zelda game, nor have I ever had such trouble figuring out which I liked the most. Henrie June 09, 2008, 07:48 PM "Twilight Princess is a game that could've been stunning, but it was rushed out"
Well, I don't think it was rushed out. It took them ages to create. But there are some weird things. The last 2 levels are very short (Palace of Twilight could have been awesome). The last level is just a mess. I really don't get why the game hasn't a wolf dungeon. That would have been a must. And there is one thing they actually didn't do anything with: You could as a wolf howl beside horse and hawk grass. Then your horse or the hawk would arrive depending on the grass. You could talk to them, but it really had no use at all. I am sure they had a use planned for it, but it was to late to implement it because of the deadline. lefthandedlink June 09, 2008, 10:23 PM One thing I realized that was a flaw in all Zelda games was the apathy of the enemies.
Instead of them changing their strategy upon you, it's you who has to adapt to their linear, already-predicted moves. As I played Call of Duty 4 on Saturday with my cousin, I noticed that the enemy always, always changed his attacks based on your own choices. That's how the monsters in the Zelda franchise should act, creating a substance that only furthers our make-belief that this game could be more real. Ian Brown June 10, 2008, 04:45 AM Quote OoT had virtually zero competition when it was released. It's not like reviewers had many games to compare it to at the time, so obviously, its scores were somewhat inflated. The GameCube port, released in 2002, has a GameRankings critic average of 89.7%, which is certainly not "best of all time" material. In fact, numerous Zelda fans, myself included, felt OoT had been dethroned as soon as Majora's Mask was released in 2000. Aside from a few games that were in the same league, such as FF7 (granted different console, but held in equal esteem), Mario 64 (a game I dislike, but a game that's held in esteem) and The Legend of the Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon (which doesn't take itself seriously, but is vibrant and has brilliant levels), I agree there weren't many games that were of competition. However, the point remains that five years after the game came out, it was still being hailed as the best game of all time, whereas games like Mystical Ninja, Mario 64 and FF7 had started to, or completely fallen off of the radar. Further, comparing the Collector's Edition, or MQ to the original is facile. The graphics didn't stand up to the games of the Gamecube generation, and using the Gamecube controller for a game designed for the N64 controller not only felt wrong, but made the game harder and less enjoyable to play. Therefore it's naturally going to get a worse score. It's like trying to play Pikmin 1 on the Wii controller - sure there are enough buttons but the placement is off entirely. Quote Your arguments are generic and flimsy. OoT was every bit as linear as TP. If you don't count the numerous game-breaking glitches due to shitty programming, OoT had only one possible dungeon sequence except Shadow/Spirit, which could be done in either order. That was it. You had no other flexibility otherwise. The whole adult quest was a boring, linear dungeon crawl which paled in comparison to TP's. Some fans complained about the apparent lack of material in between the Mirror Shard dungeons, but that was only relative to the Tears of Light quests. There was more to do between Lakebed and Arbiter's, or between Snowpeak and Temple of Time than there was between any two of OoT's adult dungeons, optional sidequests aside. And as expected, the OoT fanboys are too blinded by their rose-tinted nostalgia goggles to realise the hypocrisy in their complaints about TP. In what respect? In Twilight Princess you have no option but to complete the game in the set way, in Ocarina of Time your options are much more varied and as an adult you are able to complete the Spirit Temple before the Shadow Temple, you can get access to the Hookshot before it's needed, you can "shoot" for the Fire Arrows straight away, you can venture into Gerudo's Fortress straight away. There are many areas in which you are able to choose your own destiny - whereas in Twilight Princess you've very restricted to the predefined plot. I agree that there is a little bit more to do between certain quests in Twilight Princess than in certain quests between Ocarina of Time. But equally speaking, many of them are optional as they were in Ocarina of Time. Finding Epona was optional, but the same could be said for most Zelda games. There really isn't much to do between the levels unless you actively seek them out. Even with Majora's Mask, the option of literally just playing the game to complete the levels is there, and there's nothing inbetween the levels - as getting the masks is part of that level. That's a problem with all Zelda games, but it's not just isolated to the Zelda franchise. Between levels in Nights there was little to do, between levels in Shiren the Wanderer there was little to do, and between levels in most of the FFs there was little to do. Quote As for replayability? OoT's cutscenes get old by your third playthrough. Personally, I have neither the time nor the patience to watch a combined 3 hours of cutscenes that I've already seen. It doesn't help that OoT's story wasn't exactly Oscar-calibre material, either. At least TP's designers had the decency to let you skip its cinematics on subsequent playthroughs so you could focus entirely on its gameplay. The five-minute intro with the Great Deku Tree and Navi, along with the ten-minute "history of Hyrule" lesson after the first dungeon, have eliminated any desire I'd have to replay OoT for a second time. As I recall, there are more cut-scenes in Twilight Princess than there are in Ocarina of Time, and the optional skipping is a great benefit to the game for people replaying it. However, simply refusing to replay the game because of the lengthy cutscenes really isn't a valid argument as you don't play the game for the cut-scenes. All it takes is to hit the A button a few times to smash through what's being said. It's not like it's FF:CC where it's about a 30 minute cut-scene at the start of the game. Although personally, I hate cut-scenes on the whole and welcomed the addition of the optional skip, but that's what happens as technology progresses. Quote OoT's levels consisted of repetitive puzzles involving block-pushing, torch-lighting, and switch shooting. That is your definition of good design? Are you kidding me? By the time I had reached the adult quest, I was sick of those "puzzles" because I felt they had been recycled ad nauseum, not to mention that they hardly required any thinking. (See an unlit torch? Time to use that Deku Stick/Din's Fire/Fire Arrow!) In TP, the first block-pushing puzzle didn't happen until Snowpeak Ruins, halfway through the game. In contrast to OoT's mindless and generic block pushing, TP's puzzles were actually strategic and required thinking a la Sokoban. On the other hand, we were able to walk on magnetic ceilings, ride spinners along twisting rails, and fly through the air like Spiderman via double clawshots. Since when did OoT ever offer this much variety? Twilight Princess's puzzles at best were easy, at worst were painfully obvious. All that TP did different was not introduce the majority of the torch lighting puzzles until later in the game. The earlier levels were basically the equivalent of hitting the "Eye" in the Forest Temple, you swang around a little and landed on a block which opened a door. There's little difference there. Further, having the magnetic ceiling's is not indicative of good level design, it's indicative of change. These things have been done before, just in different styles. In OoT the equivalent of walking on the ceiling was brought on very early. In Dodongo's Cavern and in the Water Temple, it's just a dungeon on multiple levels. All your stating is that TP did things a little differently, which is true. However, you seem to be under the impression that they're new - they're not. These things have been done before in OoT, MM and even ALttP. Yes there's graphical enhancement, and yes the technology has allowed new styles of weapons. But nothing's utilised to it's best ability. The majority of the weapons in TP are used once, for that one level, and then forgotten about entirely. The only one that I remember being used more than once is the double hookshot and the arrows. Aside from that, you used the Ball and Chain in one level, you use Gale Boomerang in one level, the dominion rod is forgotten about almost straight after going through all the effort to get it, the lamp is only used once or twice the horse call is got way too late in the game. So late that it's no longer relevant. Let's not even mention the Spinner, which is one of the most creative Zelda items I've seen in years - but it's essentially left behind after you complete the level. Whereas in OoT the items are used in more than one level at a time, yes this means that gameplay is slightly more linear, but the option to leave and move onto the next level is there, and you don't need all of the previous items to continue onwards. Whereas the option to move to the next level isn't usually there in TP, and it's almost like the items were left behind as they're so infrequently used. Quote Well, I don't think it was rushed out. It took them ages to create. But there are some weird things. The last 2 levels are very short (Palace of Twilight could have been awesome). The last level is just a mess. I really don't get why the game hasn't a wolf dungeon. That would have been a must. It feels rushed, the storyline (which is fairly good) is left untied in most areas, and there are a lot of holes in the plot. The relationship between the characters is being built a the start of the game, and then suddenly screams to a halt, there weren't enough dungeons, the Wolf Dynamic may have been a quick change, but aside from the first part of the game, Wolf Link becomes next to useless. Personally, I feel that they spend time they could've done with polishing the game, adding the Wii Controls to the game. I understand the motives behind adding the Wii Controls (great launch game) but it could've been so much more. lefthandedlink June 10, 2008, 11:27 AM Wow, Ian. I agree with basically everything you said... even though link182 made some good points as well.
link182 June 10, 2008, 12:58 PM I, uh... yes, I've made good points that I can't seem to remember posting on this thread...
lefthandedlink June 10, 2008, 01:15 PM I mean, ZentendoUser.
Hah, I can't believe I mistook you for him. Actually... I can believe it.  Hylian_Human June 10, 2008, 02:07 PM Quote The majority of the weapons in TP are used once, for that one level, and then forgotten about entirely. The only one that I remember being used more than once is the double hookshot and the arrows. Aside from that, you used the Ball and Chain in one level, you use Gale Boomerang in one level, the dominion rod is forgotten about almost straight after going through all the effort to get it, the lamp is only used once or twice the horse call is got way too late in the game. So late that it's no longer relevant. Let's not even mention the Spinner, which is one of the most creative Zelda items I've seen in years - but it's essentially left behind after you complete the level. The dominion rod was used excessively in the dungeon it is acquired in. The dominion rods purpose was to improve upon wind waker's command melody. The dominion rod was an extremely clever tool that was used to make some the best puzzles in TP. The gale boomerang was an item that was encouraged to be used in combat throughout the entire game. The ball and chain was another item that was encouraged to be used in combat. The spinner is used often in the overworld to get to secret areas and even skip a route. The items and equipment in TP were better then Oot's items. simpleGamer June 10, 2008, 04:28 PM Reading this article actually gave me goosebumps, it’s definitely exciting to talk about what might take place in the future with this franchise and contemplate the possibilities. The core Zelda games have always been fun, the characters and story are appealing or they wouldn’t have attracted such a following. But like most I do agree that the gameplay is getting a bit repetitive.
I’m sure I’m not the only one that’s been thinking about this but what does everyone think about a Zelda more in the lines of a game like Oblivion. Open ended with multiple ways to complete the mission and tons of story arcs to choose from. For the diehard Zelda story nuts (like me) you can put a ton of content in the game world (like in books or special dungeon missions or side stories) but without needing to complete such things for the main story arc. That way casual gamers or new players can avoid them if they think it’s too difficult but those that want to really enjoy all the mythos can really sink their teeth in for a long time. D-Fi3 June 10, 2008, 07:05 PM In my opinion, there should be no remake, as more people who are not dedicated to Zelda will complain about things. I think Ganondorf should stay in the game, but his and Link's battle in the game would be fairly early in the game instead of at the end, but their battle is interupted by some outside force, which causes Ganon and Link to team up, probably against Ganon's will and pride.
Chou June 10, 2008, 07:17 PM No way! That's just like disney!
Wind June 10, 2008, 07:18 PM *Agrees*
Dude, that would make so many people angry... thelegendofmeh June 10, 2008, 07:37 PM me, for example...
Henrie June 10, 2008, 08:22 PM "I think Ganondorf should stay in the game, but his and Link's battle in the game would be fairly early in the game instead of at the end, but their battle is interupted by some outside force, which causes Ganon and Link to team up, probably against Ganon's will and pride"
Why not? It is something new for once. It could be good, if done right. And it should not have to stay like this forever. In future zelda's they could again make Ganondorf the main villain. lurch028 June 10, 2008, 09:34 PM
so you're saying that since you can't skip the cutscenes on your second runthrough, that TP is better than OOT? lol those 2 minutes clips must really make you think about how bad your life sucks for you to have such bad thoughts about them.... haha j/k but really OOT is as far as i'm concerned the pinnacle of gaming and the reason we keep wanting to see such demanding games is because we've already had a taste of the best and we want more; not to mention as some others already have, i dont want to see this turn into mario or sonic. I can go without seeing a "Zelda and Barbie at the Olympic games" or a "Link's 3 on 3 basketball" it's really sad what's happened to some great series out there, and Zelda fans high expectations are what keep the series above those. Ian Brown June 11, 2008, 02:42 AM Quote The dominion rod was used excessively in the dungeon it is acquired in. The dominion rods purpose was to improve upon wind waker's command melody. The dominion rod was an extremely clever tool that was used to make some the best puzzles in TP. The gale boomerang was an item that was encouraged to be used in combat throughout the entire game. The ball and chain was another item that was encouraged to be used in combat. The spinner is used often in the overworld to get to secret areas and even skip a route. The items and equipment in TP were better then Oot's items. Yes, they were all used in one area, the Gale Boomerang was an item that may have been encouraged to be used, but didn't require it. The Spinner was only used for secret areas - places where not all Zelda players go to. These new items were great, don't get me know, but they needed to be used in more creative ways. Such as having to use the Spinner to get up part of Hyrule Castle, such as having to use the Domion Rod before you're able to actually gain entrance to the Twilight Mirror. There are lots of little things where the items could've been reused and actually made it feel like getting the items was actually worthwhile. Just like when you go through all of the strain to get the magic spells in OoT or in ALttP, they're not only good, but they're useful and can be used multiple times. The same could be said for the megaton hammer, Big Goron's sword and many other lesser items. They're all used multiple times, which increases the options of puzzles in the game. But again, I'm not saying that TP is a poor game. Only a game that could, and should've been much better considerng the amount of development time that was given to it. Although, as I've said before, I'd happily like to see a mammoth tale, with stupid amount of backstory, and 12 dungeons, where we don't know who the villian is, but it turns out to be your partner, and Link is betrayed. Then after having to kill your partner (with Zelda's help, kinda like how helpful she was in WW/TP), Ganondorf appears out of no-where and kills Link. Then all we see is Zelda riding Epona at super pace to the Sacred Realm for aid, and then we see a fading screen of Zelda, Link and the Sages. Leaving a direct sequel wide open, and the fandom crying out for more. ZentendoUser June 11, 2008, 04:27 AM Quote However, the point remains that five years after the game came out, it was still being hailed as the best game of all time, whereas games like Mystical Ninja, Mario 64 and FF7 had started to, or completely fallen off of the radar. Based on what? Mario 64 is currently #9 on Game Rankings, and #5 on IGN's 2007 Top 100 list. "Best game ever" lists are always incredibly subjective, and are usually more aptly named "most influential" rather than best from a technical perspective. Quote Further, comparing the Collector's Edition, or MQ to the original is facile. The graphics didn't stand up to the games of the Gamecube generation, and using the Gamecube controller for a game designed for the N64 controller not only felt wrong, but made the game harder and less enjoyable to play. Therefore it's naturally going to get a worse score. It's like trying to play Pikmin 1 on the Wii controller - sure there are enough buttons but the placement is off entirely. Except if you've actually read the reviews in question, you'll notice that many of the criticisms had nothing to do with the GameCube controls or dated graphics. For example, this 7 out of 10 review from Thunderbolt's associate editor could have easily been applied to the original N64 game. Quote In what respect? In Twilight Princess you have no option but to complete the game in the set way, in Ocarina of Time your options are much more varied and as an adult you are able to complete the Spirit Temple before the Shadow Temple, you can get access to the Hookshot before it's needed, you can "shoot" for the Fire Arrows straight away, you can venture into Gerudo's Fortress straight away. There are many areas in which you are able to choose your own destiny - whereas in Twilight Princess you've very restricted to the predefined plot. Gerudo's Fortress was an optional dungeon, just like the Cave of Ordeals in TP. You can complete the Cave once you've finished the Temple of Time. As for the lack of flexibility in using items, I think that had to do with the developers wanting to prevent sequence breaks. I prefer having the kind of flexibility you mentioned as well, but I wouldn't necessarily consider the lack thereof as a "flaw." TP, unlike OoT, doesn't have hundreds of unprofessional-looking glitches and unintended shortcuts. Quote Twilight Princess's puzzles at best were easy, at worst were painfully obvious. All that TP did different was not introduce the majority of the torch lighting puzzles until later in the game. The earlier levels were basically the equivalent of hitting the "Eye" in the Forest Temple, you swang around a little and landed on a block which opened a door. There's little difference there. Let's face it: none of the puzzles in Zelda games are exactly head-scratching (compared to pure puzzlers like Chip's Challenge, Sokoban, etc.) However, I didn't think TP's puzzles were any "easier" than OoT's. Having large, complicated mazes that are a pain to navigate (see Water Temple, Great Bay Temple) is not "difficult," but simply exploiting the fact that many players do not know how to use the map to their advantage. Quote Further, having the magnetic ceiling's is not indicative of good level design, it's indicative of change. These things have been done before, just in different styles. In OoT the equivalent of walking on the ceiling was brought on very early. In Dodongo's Cavern and in the Water Temple, it's just a dungeon on multiple levels. Regardless, TP's dungeons were more interesting and offered more variety than OoT's. The presentation was superior. Quote The majority of the weapons in TP are used once, for that one level, and then forgotten about entirely. The only one that I remember being used more than once is the double hookshot and the arrows. Aside from that, you used the Ball and Chain in one level, you use Gale Boomerang in one level, the dominion rod is forgotten about almost straight after going through all the effort to get it, the lamp is only used once or twice the horse call is got way too late in the game. So late that it's no longer relevant. Let's not even mention the Spinner, which is one of the most creative Zelda items I've seen in years - but it's essentially left behind after you complete the level. How would you suggest new uses for said items? This has been a problem in previous Zelda games, and it's hypocritical to be whining about it now. The Mirror Shield in OoT was useless outside of the Spirit Temple. The Megaton Hammer was used to crack a few rocks in the overworld (mostly for skulltula grottos) and that was it. The Iron Boots were used only in Water Temple and forgotten about. Same for the Hover Boots and Shadow Temple, respectively. Half of the items were left useless at any point in time to due to the time-travel gimmick. Half of the masks in Majora's Mask were novelty items. The Cane of Byrna and Magic Cape had few applications in A Link to the Past. In the same game, the Medallions were used only once each to open up new dungeons and then forgotten about. Why start complaining now? Quote It feels rushed, the storyline (which is fairly good) is left untied in most areas, and there are a lot of holes in the plot. The relationship between the characters is being built a the start of the game, and then suddenly screams to a halt, there weren't enough dungeons, the Wolf Dynamic may have been a quick change, but aside from the first part of the game, Wolf Link becomes next to useless. Do we really need to know every detail about every minor character? The emphasis of TP's story was on character development, and we saw that come full circle. Does it matter if Ganondorf's fate is never shown? Does it matter if Link never gets back together with Ilia? These are trivial in comparison to the main plot, which Nintendo fully delivered on given its theme. For what it had to offer, it was a brilliant comparison of two very different worlds and two personalities. You have to look at TP's plot as a standalone story, not one written for the express fanboyish purpose of answering all timeline-related questions. As for "not enough dungeons," are you kidding? Dungeon count has nothing to do with length. OoT's Deku Tree, Dodongo's Cavern, Jabu, Ice Cavern, Gerudo's Fortress, and Bottom of the Well should be counted as 0.5x each. A Link to the Past's Light World dungeons should be counted as 0.25x each. TP had some shorter dungeons, most notably the Palace of Twilight and Hyrule Castle, but their long boss battles made up for the fewer rooms. Quote But again, I'm not saying that TP is a poor game. Only a game that could, and should've been much better considerng the amount of development time that was given to it. How much development time did TP get? 2.5 years? It might even have been slightly less what OoT got (announced 1995, released 1998) and it was bigger and better in every possible way. StackThatCheese June 11, 2008, 06:35 PM I'm ready for a huge change in every department.
Sound- Orchestrated music, with only a few themes being brought back. Voice acting as well for everyone that talks to Link, but still no Link talking obviously.There is no excuse anymore. Graphics - On par with SMG and SSBB, and if they can do better, please do. Also, that picture fior this article inspired an idea for a new graphics scheme. WW was cartoony, yet things lacked more than a few colors and weren't very detailed. TP fixed this with it's realistic style. They should base the graphics off those drawings depicting LA/Oracle in a semi-cel shaded look. The textures and colors would be much more detailed, giving the series a completely new look. Gameplay - Magic must be back with a bunch of weapons and spells that use it. The weapons must be new, yet have relevance throughout the story unlike TP. The dungeons should be numbered at 9 or 10 as well as a secret dungeon or something awesome like that. What ever happened to cool and interesting little things like that in games? What about open ended areas that would have hours upon hours of things to explore? Oh and the games should be like MM hard. This article also mentioned other characters to play as...please do. Maybe try the dual dungeon from WW a few more times or have segments like in Paper Mario where you take someone else's role. Or maybe pull a Raiden and have half the game controlled as someone else...(that might not be a good idea...) What if there was a full fledged Zelda where Link wasn't involved at all? Series like Castlevania, Resident Evil and Metal Gear have had multiple protagonists and it seems to fly with people. What if during the time line, a Link wasn't in existence? A new bad ass character being introduced for a game or two would absolutely kick ass. Henrie June 11, 2008, 07:43 PM "What if there was a full fledged Zelda where Link wasn't involved at all?"
Link should be in it, no matter what! link182 June 12, 2008, 12:20 AM Um... I would technically have to call you on the fact that he could still very easily be referred to as a Link, being the hero of the game. Maybe he'd dress differently than his predecessors, or act differently, but I'd bet you he's still referred to as Link in general.
Santuli June 12, 2008, 01:16 PM Uh...I second everything ZU said, again. If someone were to see what was going inside my mind, they'd see a huge standing obation regarding that last post...
lefthandedlink June 12, 2008, 01:39 PM Thirded.
Wind June 12, 2008, 01:54 PM Fourth*ed.
Guest June 12, 2008, 06:02 PM "The fact that there are a lot of Ocarina of Time fanboys is in no way an indication of the title's true quality. The only reason it has such a vocal fanbase is that it serves as a rose-tinted-nostalgia-goggles favorite evoking fond childhood memories for many Zelda fans. And these fans, most of whom are in the 14-19 age group, happen to be dominating online communities at the moment. It is for this reason that this game will never be beaten in their eyes, as nostalgia plays a significant role in clouding players' judgments. If you look back at Ocarina, you'll realize that the gameplay and level design are dated, the controls are wonky and far less fluid than their modern counterparts, and the story is shallow and clichéd."
We could talk about whether OoT was actually shallow or cliched or not then, or even today. We could talk about whether today's ratings are based on nostalgia or quality(I played Ocarina of Time the first time rather recently, and I found it to be possibly the most immersive game I've ever played. I played it several times over.) But I just don't think that it would be so controversial to say that gameplay, environment, music, and epic storyline have ever come together to make such a definitive gaming experience, before or since. Think about it: what game's storyline could you talk about for hours because it has such deep symbolism and controlling ideas? What tunes immediately spring to mind when someone says, "videogame music"? And it's not about nostalgia, either, or preference. As a screenwriter and movie critic, I'm a guy who's been training himself for years to be objective. Name a film genre and I'll tell you my favorite aspects of it. But I will not tell you one genre is better than another. It's movies themselves that are better or worse than each other. Ocarina of Time isn't even my favorite game: Final Fantasy X is, because I relate to the storyline and it's characters more than other people do. But objective quality and preference are two different things. Now, some people may think it's impossible to be completely objective, and that may be true. But if you say the earth is flat,(just to illustrate a point) and I say the earth is round, does that mean that Earth doesn't exist? Course not. You're saying Ocarina of Time isn't the best game ever. I'm saying it is. One of us has to be right. I like a good debate. Not an official debate, but you know, a friendly one. ZentendoUser, you made a claim. You stated that "Ocarina of Time is the single most overrated pile of feces in the gaming industry." Sure. Can you prove it? No offense, (I mean, you sound like a much more knowledgeable guy than I am) but most of what you've been saying are opinionated statements that can't be defended against. Someone mentions that Ocarina of Time is less linear than today's games(which is quite plausible, well-known in fact) and you went on about "unprofessional glitches". " TP's dungeons were more interesting and offered more variety than OoT's. The presentation was superior." I disagree, but I'm not going to defend OoT until you've actually attacked it properly. Which levels in OoT lacked variety, and which TP levels didn't? Because so far I have no reason to believe you. Bring some actual facts forward and I'd love to talk to you about it. Ocarina of Time has been acclaimed as the greatest game yet, pretty much universally and since it's release. You may be onto something, but if you want to dethrone it now, it's going to take more than repeatedly announcing, "Twilight Princess is better!" Henrie June 12, 2008, 07:30 PM @link182,
I get what you mean, but I think nintendo should stick to the green garbed, pointy eared Link. link182 June 12, 2008, 10:36 PM @link182,Actually, I was simply referring to the possibility of a "non-Link" character mentioned by StackThatCheese. I, too, think that they should stick with the green garbed hero. Santuli June 13, 2008, 03:18 PM I think Guest is taking this too seriously...XP
Uh...I dont think Zelda would be quite the same if Link was not there...its like Metroid without Samus, or Mario without Mario or Luigi, or Starfox without the Starfox team. lefthandedlink June 13, 2008, 04:04 PM How about this:
The goodness of the Zelda game series is relative. Many people have many points on its goodness and badness, and most of these people will not change their opinions on this judgment. Can we get over this? We have like ten threads JUST on this stupid, neverending argument. Santuli June 13, 2008, 05:52 PM Ok...then what would you like to discuss? This topic ties in with the future of Zelda...I think its fine to talk about this.
Hylian_Pirate June 13, 2008, 06:30 PM Wow, missed a lot. XP
I now agree with ZU completely and know that he is NOT a troll, just someone with different opinions. As someone with no nostalgia of OoT and had TP as his first Zelda game, I liked TP better. OoT is pretty boring and whenever I play it, I want to quit right away. OoT was good for its time, but nostalgia is a pathetic reason for preferring a game. I'm excited to see what Zelda can do next. Maybe even tie in that "future" idea, but via time travel . That way, everyone is pleased.Oh, and there was one person missing from TP who was 35 years old and name started with a "T". think he could return? lefthandedlink June 13, 2008, 08:26 PM Ok...then what would you like to discuss? This topic ties in with the future of Zelda...I think its fine to talk about this.Except we're focusing on its past. ZentendoUser June 14, 2008, 02:55 AM Quote I found it to be possibly the most immersive game I've ever played.Have you ever played Bioshock or Grand Theft Auto IV? You clearly haven't seen real "immersion" if OoT is the best you've ever played. Immersion means that every bit of the game world, along with its inhabitants, feels "alive." Quoting IGN, Quote Watch the people and you'll witness some amazing things. At one point, I saw a woman stopped at a light, looking in the rearview mirror right before she was rear-ended by a man ogling a girl on the street. The man got out of his car and went to the woman, checking to see if she was okay. This had nothing to do with Niko or a single action I took. Hang in one area of the city long enough and you'll see how traffic and pedestrian flow changes as the day progresses. When it rains, people bring out umbrellas or shield themselves with a newspaper and run for an awning. Go to an affluent neighborhood and the street is likely to be newly paved, the pedestrians better dressed, the cops more plentiful. But head to Dukes or Bohan and you'll find streets nearly stripped of asphalt, homeless people wandering about aimlessly and criminals preying on the weak.That's "immersion." Heck, even as a gamer who prefers Nintendo games, I wouldn't even go so far as to claim that ANY Nintendo title has come remotely close to the industry standard in this department. Quote Think about it: what game's storyline could you talk about for hours because it has such deep symbolism and controlling ideas?What kind of deep symbolism and controlling ideas? Care to name them? Quote What tunes immediately spring to mind when someone says, "videogame music"?For me: Final Fantasy X (which incidentally, you've also played). Super Mario Galaxy. Okami. Quote You stated that "Ocarina of Time is the single most overrated pile of feces in the gaming industry." That wasn't a real "argument"---I was merely voicing an opinion (which, to this day, has not changed). The "long answer" marks the point when I decided to enter this debate. Quote Someone mentions that Ocarina of Time is less linear than today's games(which is quite plausible, well-known in fact) and you went on about "unprofessional glitches".I wasn't using this statement to prove anything. All I was saying is that allowing nonlinear progression in a game tends to lead to unintended sequence breaks and glitches. Look at Super Metroid. Look at the original Legend of Zelda. Look at Metroid Prime. Every popular nonlinear game has been broken to hell---and the programmers probably decided to sacrifice nonlinearity for the sake of having solid code that can't be easily broken by the players, which in turn makes their work appear more professional. Quote Which levels in OoT lacked variety, and which TP levels didn't? Because so far I have no reason to believe you. Bring some actual facts forward and I'd love to talk to you about it.Did you read all of my earlier posts? I explained EXACTLY why I was disappointed with OoT's level design. There were way too many repeated puzzle elements, such as pushing blocks, lighting torches, and shooting switches. Virtually every single dungeon item was associated with one type of puzzle, and only one: Megaton Hammer with rusted switches, explosives with cracked walls, hookshots with targets, et cetera. By the end of the game, I was completely sick of them. TP, on the other hand, did not recycle the same puzzle elements ad nauseum. Block-pushing was restricted to one level and a secret cave in the overworld; torch-lighting was all but forgotten until Hyrule Castle (hence a lot of players got stuck in the room with the rising stairs); and dungeon items were largely restricted to one level each so players didn't feel as if they were using them to perform the same tasks all the time. Quote Ocarina of Time has been acclaimed as the greatest game yet, pretty much universally and since it's release.Oh, really? All the folks in this very topic who disagree with this notion have proven you wrong. link182 June 14, 2008, 06:50 AM I don't really want to dissect any of your other arguments right now, so I'll just show you this one in particular. He said "pretty much." It's the sort of word which says almost, or most, or any other synonym. Being in a large minority is still being in a minority, as proven by the fact that it's hailed as no. 1 on just about any list of "best video games of all time." And even though that is a biased list on any account, it's a biased list on any account. No one's opinion is unbiased when it comes to "best (insert form of entertainment)". A cult following of a 1970's movie is not going to stop the fact that the people who liked it are in a minority. So, when most people like something, and very few people don't, they'll just go with "pretty much universal" or even "universal" though the latter is invalid. Ah, hell. I'm in the mood to dissect your post now, so I might as well. Too tired to sleep anyway. Agree with you there, there, but not here. Ocarina of Time has had much ado about its music, and I don't usually think of mostly orchestrated things when I think of video game music. I think of .midi's and the Super Mario Bros. Theme. I think of the Donkey Kong theme and the Kirby's Adventure music. But his question was "which tunes" which meant which songs. I don't really have any problem with you there. Mostly agree with you here and at your "long answer" that I actually went back and read. And yet you reference GTA 4 in your list of, what I'm assuming since you mentioned it in a positive light, is a game you enjoy? It's non-linear, in the definition you've implied by including MP. And it's popular. So where's the breakage to hell that you've mentioned? It's not there because it's more immersive, a quality that I think the future of Zelda games desperately needs to save them from the perpetuity the series seems to have reached. An immersive world where it doesn't take an hour to get from point a to point b, that is. So I'm agreed there, too. I find it strange that I can agree with so much of what you've said. It's sort of a... happy... feeling. Not that I don't feel lots of happy on this forum, it's just that I often disagree with what someone has said a great deal. Yes, I liked TP's lack of repetition. Moar variety, less repetition! Vote ZentendoUser in '08! Yeah... um, I'm gonna have to go ahead and deduct some man-points from myself for that outburst. Anyway... While I liked the larger amount of variety, I missed the difficult puzzles of days of yore. But one suggestion for the future of Zelda is that in the final dungeon (i.e., the one with the game's finale and big boss) they should make you use each of your acquired items at least once, and the puzzles should be a bit more difficult than any appearing in the rest of the game. But just a bit more difficult. So I agreed with you... Badass. Except, I kind of liked OoT (the first time), until MM, WW, and TP came out. But the thing about non-linear, non-immersive games is that they have just about 0 replay value. TP included. So, now I guess I have to come up with my own thoughts... I think I'd like to see more of the legends elaborated upon. What I mean to say is, I'd like to see more of the Links used continually. I mean, used again. Re-used. Again. Ech, I can't put my words right anymore... I would like to see less new "Links" and more of our current "Links" continuing their stories. Giving the characters more depth and allowing for half-decent storylines. I would LOVE to see that. I adore the thought. I also want more creative weaponry and newer magic moves. Don't get me wrong, love the items Link has had up to this point, but they're being re-used to death. Arrows, bombs, and maybe some others should stay, but I want to see new weapons and actually have the whole "Wow, this thing is b1tch1ng!" kind of feeling. And the magic Link's got (or had until TP) is getting stale. Gimme something that'll make me go "WHOA!" or actually have a useful purpose. Like, maybe incorporating some new magic moves and then making Link acquire them in the story and then require him to use them in one of the dungeons. I mean, the items and magic are getting way boring, and stale too. They were ('cept the new ones) completely uncreative in TP. I would also (maybe) like some more realism. I mean, I know it's a fantasy setting in each game, but maybe give Link a maximum size and weight and number of items he can carry at any time? He could be able to store them in his house or with a friend or in some sort of a central hub of your adventure that is the center of the world map that's easy to access from anywhere? And maybe a teleport spell to get you there, to your house or other important place? But I don't want to see fifty thousand teleport spots, just two or three. I want to see a better story, and to some extent, voice acting. Obviously I don't want any for Link, not at the moment at least (as the whole silent protagonist thing helps envision yourself as the character), but it would give the game a much better feeling of immersion. I also want better dialogue than some of the shit you'll read in the game. I want newer music. WW didn't re-use much music from past Zelda titles, but TP re-used the hell out of old music. I don't just want variations, either. Although if they went with my "re-use the same Links in future titles" idea, I wouldn't mind a wee bit of re-used music or variations on it, but nothing over doing it. And I want most, if not all, of the music to be orchestrated. Out of ideas for now, gonna quote "Guest" to illustrate a point: And it's not about nostalgia, either, or preference. As a screenwriter and movie critic, I'm a guy who's been training himself for years to be objective. Name a film genre and I'll tell you my favorite aspects of it. But I will not tell you one genre is better than another. It's movies themselves that are better or worse than each other.If you told me your favorite parts, that'd be objective. None of your post seems objective in any way, and I'd be fine with that if you didn't say it was objective. Now, some people may think it's impossible to be completely objective, and that may be true. But if you say the earth is flat,(just to illustrate a point) and I say the earth is round, does that mean that Earth doesn't exist? Course not. You're saying Ocarina of Time isn't the best game ever. I'm saying it is. One of us has to be right.This has to be your "Most ill-stated moment" ever. The earth doesn't exist? is the stupidest analogical question I've ever heard. So if both people say it's one thing, it doesn't exist anymore? Phrased oh-so-poorly. And on "OoT best game ever" I'd say no, neither of you has to be right. Know why? Because it's a matter of opinion. An objective view would probably just look at the game's technical specs, but then the game could very easily be universally decried. That's why you need to use a little bit of both ob- and sub- jective views. I'd probably put Dig Dug up higher than OoT, along with Donkey Kong. Not because of nostalgia, but because I genuinely love those games and the way they play. The controls are better than OoT because it was made in a less experimental time in video game programming history. And it's fun. OoT's fun, too, but it's just too damn long. Long and boring and unenjoyable on any subsequent play-through. You stated that "Ocarina of Time is the single most overrated pile of feces in the gaming industry." Sure. Can you prove it? No offense, (I mean, you sound like a much more knowledgeable guy than I am) but most of what you've been saying are opinionated statements that can't be defended against. Someone mentions that Ocarina of Time is less linear than today's games(which is quite plausible, well-known in fact) and you went on about "unprofessional glitches".Y'know, you haven't really provided any proof contrary to his statement, and as a subjective opinion he doesn't need to defend his not liking it. You, however, should provide at least a little proof of why it should be ranked numbah 1 in video games. He's provided reasons, you haven't really provided any except "I'm right, you're wrong." " TP's dungeons were more interesting and offered more variety than OoT's. The presentation was superior." I disagree, but I'm not going to defend OoT until you've actually attacked it properly. Which levels in OoT lacked variety, and which TP levels didn't? Because so far I have no reason to believe you. Bring some actual facts forward and I'd love to talk to you about it.Once again, his facts (though really, both of them are opinions based on facts ) abound on this thread, yours don't. He hasn't so much attacked it as he has listed his reasons that it's not as good as people make it out to be. Ocarina of Time has been acclaimed as the greatest game yet, pretty much universally and since it's release. You may be onto something, but if you want to dethrone it now, it's going to take more than repeatedly announcing, "Twilight Princess is better!"Not really. It'll never be subjectively dethroned by anyone because too many people don't want to face up to the facts. TP's the better game graphics, control, story, and gameplay wise, but its puzzles are (for the most part) severely lacking any real challenge. This is pretty much the only thing I've got against TP, that and the fact that it proved in-game that there were two parallel Zelda dimensions/timelines. Again, he's done way more than say TP's better, he's provided a s***load of points and examples and proofs to boot. I looked thru the old posts to get ideas I might've forgotten about, so here they are... I might be a little disappointed with a reboot of the series, but if they could just alter the timeline of the current ones a bit to fit into the new timeline, I might be okay with it. Maybe to clarify, just the really excellent games would I want to remain canon. Don't really care where they refit them in, just that they do and then don't fuck with the timeline anymore. I'd like TP and the WW series to remain canon with any new one, but if they do a reboot it'll probably be the whole damn thing, so I'm hoping if they decide to do that that they write up some story or something to put the games in order and fill in the blanks, or make a tie-in game to resolve the series before releasing the reboot. Actually, that doesn't sound like a half bad idea... I'm sure I'll have more ideas later, and hopefully won't put them in a HUGE post like this one. Matthiesz June 15, 2008, 06:11 AM Personally I like TP more because of the adult, better designed Link and the better controls (I hate the locking system in OoT, as an example).
How about this idea for a new LoZ: Revenge of son and father!: Link is married with Ilia, and has a baby wich they've also called Link (for another sequel). They lived happily together, until ganondorf got revived by Zant and together massacred Ordon, wich includes Ilia. And when Zant + ganondorf tried to destroy the village (with all the people, including Link's son) father Link sacrifies himself. But by love he's not destroyed/dead, but petrified into stone. (I still need to think about this part) Needing his father do become normal again, young Link searches throught Hyrule for the Holy Sages of Health to make him a medicine. Off course, Ganondorf tries to stop him upon the journey, having a whole new Legend of Zelda-story! Matthiesz June 15, 2008, 06:17 AM (addition to my last post (I don't know how to quote yet))
Young link is like 10-years-old by then. And I think if that would be a game, there will have to be a second collection run (like in TP: first the dark spirits, and then the mirror of twilight fragments). But I don't really have an idea yet, Do you guys? I love speculating/dreaming of LoZ sequels <3. Santuli June 16, 2008, 09:40 AM ....
No...no, to every part of your post Matt. Thats the biggest pile of fan fic I've ever seen. Why would Zant revive Ganondorf when he realized that Ganondorf was using him as a puppet? Both are dead in the first place anyways. Married to Ilia? We've never seen Link married to anyone. Picking someone for him to marry sounds ridiculous, especially when there is so much controversy (among fans anyways) about who link is crushing on or should be with in TP. Holy Sages of Health? ....right.... I like speculating too, but keeping it within what is possible, you know? =\ I dont have much to add to link182's post...I think he said it all in that gargantuan-sized post Matthiesz June 16, 2008, 11:14 AM Now that you say so Santuli...you're kind off right, but hey, those ideas won't ever get used anyways...so realism isn't really that much of a problem.
How about this: -*thinks long* haha never mind =3 Santuli June 16, 2008, 11:30 AM Now that you say so Santuli...you're kind off right, but hey, those ideas won't ever get used anyways...so realism isn't really that much of a problem. fair enough ^_^ Guest June 17, 2008, 04:43 PM A few things I feel could be implemented into the new Zelda series whether it is ‘rebooted’ or not are as follows:
For difficulty of play/dungeons, perhaps there could be a ‘difficulty’ level option. If Nintendo still wants to accommodate for the ‘casual gamer’, difficulty levels like Beginner or Advanced could be implemented to raise or lower difficulty. E.g. turning off Midnas clues as where to go next, or perhaps having different abilities/choices in which to solve dungeons that will affect the outcome of the story line (choose your own adventure), or at least the ability to change the strengths and weakness of enemy attacks. As for voice acting, there could easily be an audio set up function that would allow one to disable the ‘voice’ but maintain the music and text (much like DVD’s that have ‘commentary’ features). And this may not necessarily be a ‘change’ for the series, but I thought might need mention. The annoying transitions between different ‘zones’ of the game, (e.g. the point in between dungeons or the like where you loose control of Link and watch him run down a set path as the screen fades in to black and then, after a few seconds of nothing, harshly reemerging into a completely new environment) for me it is really distracting and takes the continuity out of the game. Maybe the hardware of the wii can’t handle it, but if these ‘loading’ transitions where omitted; perhaps the game play would give one a better sense of the ‘immersion’ feel and overall connectedness as a whole. bloodsteam June 17, 2008, 06:08 PM I wasn't trying to say that Ocarina of Time is inerrant, or anything like that. It has flaws. But there are reasons people value it over other games. Many of you suggested that TP is the superior game, and in many aspects this is so, especially in terms of technical proficiency. Even in terms of character arcs and development. But I doubt it does in terms of story.
I would say that OoT is one of the greatest arguments for videogames as art. Not the very best(there are other examples), but it comes pretty close. A big reason for this is that Ocarina of Time is a symbolic recreation of the Holy Bible. Don't believe me? I shall clarify. You asked for examples of symbolism and a controlling idea, and I'll take you through the entire game and show you. A cutscene near the beginning of the game illustrates the creation of Hyrule. It is described that the three golden goddesses descended and shaped the swirling, watery Hyrule into an orderly form. This is clearly symbolic of the Trinity - or God, who is described in the Bible as the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, one person, equal in power and glory - creating the universe and setting the space-time continuum into motion. In OoT, the golden goddesses are called the goddesses of Wisom, Power, and Courage. In the Bible, the Father is greatly symbolic of Power, the Son is greatly symbolic of Courage, and the Holy Spirit is symbolic of Wisdom. Coincidence? Highly unlikely. After all, this brings us to the Triforce, which is iconic of the might of God. The Triforce is a huge symbol of power if used a certain way, and people want it, namely Ganondorf, but I'll get to that. You start out as the main character, Link, who lives in Kokiri Forest. He lives among Kokiri, young children who never grow old. I think it's pretty clear that Kokiri Forest represents some kind of Heaven or Paradise. It's not too hard. At the inciting incident the story seems to lean toward a Mormonistic ideal, though. This idea is that the Son, Jesus, was originally an angel that was sent out of heaven to earth, where he had work to do. In Ocarina of Time the Great Deku Tree calls Link to leave Kokiri Forest and enter the harsh world of Hyrule. He even tells Link he is "like a Son" to him. By they way, is Link a symbol of Courage in Ocarina of Time? Of course. And when the Triforce splits, Link gets the Triforce of Courage on his wrist. Link is told that he must find the Princess Zelda. When Zelda sees Link, she mentions that she saw him before in a dream. In this dream there was a dark cloud that covered Hyrule in darkness. Suddenly, a ray of light split the cloud, and out of this light came the form of Link himself. The way the dream is described suggests a prophecy. It is iconic of the prophecy of the coming of Christ. So basically, in a sense, Link is symbolic of the coming of Jesus. At one point in the story, Link must open up the room at the back of the Temple of Time. In order to do this, he gathers together three jewels; one from the Zorans, the Gorans, and the Kokiri. This is remarkably similar to the method in which Moses opens the back room of the temple called the Tabernacle in the Bible. On his tunic he wore the jewels symbolic of all the tribes of Israel. In like manner Link approaches and opens the back room of the temple in OoT, and inside he finds the Master Sword; the blade of light that has the power to defeat darkness. In the end, the Controlling Idea has much to do with the misuse of power. When Ganondorf seizes the Triforce, the land of Hyrule becomes corrupted and dark. Ganondorf wields the Triforce of Power to gain control of Hyrule. Link confronts him at his castle, which looks remarkably like a cathedral from the inside, with stain-glassed windows and Ganondorf playing an organ. The golden goddesses left the Triforce for people to use for justice. In the same way, God left the Holy Bible to bless nations and bring order. And yet, even today people constantly misuse God's word of the Bible in order to gain control. That's what it's about. There are many other themes that resonate as well, but it takes a long while to mention them all, as it is with a lot of other games. Think about it. Storyline and controlling idea is ultimately what really attracts people to games. Look at Bioshock. Look at Final Fantasy X. Look at Grand Theft Auto, even. Each one of these games has a controlling idea or theme that it conveys to the gamer, and it's an essential element of structure. An element that is strangely missing in Twilight Princess. It was fun, but there wasn't much of a point. link182 June 18, 2008, 02:14 AM At first it seemed like your symbolism might have been somewhat good examples, but then it nose dived into this huge stretch for any symbol you mention at all.
Ocarina of Time is a symbolic recreation of the Holy Bible. Don't believe me? I shall clarify. You asked for examples of symbolism and a controlling idea, and I'll take you through the entire game and show you. So far, so good. In OoT, the golden goddesses are called the goddesses of Wisom, Power, and Courage. In the Bible, the Father is greatly symbolic of Power, the Son is greatly symbolic of Courage, and the Holy Spirit is symbolic of Wisdom. Coincidence? Highly unlikely. It's a bit of a stretch to attribute Courage to the Son and Wisdom to the Spirit, as the three-in-one combo individually has pretty much the same powers. If anything, I would've done more of a comparison of the goddesses to their (believed) counterparts. Here's why this statement of yours is wrong: would God divide His being into three and then have one of them oppose the others? Ganondorf is evil, and yet he has the Triforce of Power? You have compared God (the Father) to Din, and I don't think that the Son and the Holy Spirit ever had to fight the Father, did they? On top of these, Nayru is goddess of wisdom and set up the laws. But the Spirit does not enforce these laws, and it is the Father who could be considered (possibly, not necessarily) as the most punishing. In any way outside of the fact that there's three of each, there's no commonality between the holy Trinity and the goddesses of Hyrule. I could list more differences between the attributed representation of the various Persons of the Trinity in the goddesses, but I don't think I need to. After all, this brings us to the Triforce, which is iconic of the might of God. The Triforce is a huge symbol of power if used a certain way, and people want it, namely Ganondorf, but I'll get to that. Then where is God or his many angels? On top of this, in any artistic representation it would be unfitting to make several characters operate on completely different levels and still represent just one character (the Son)... At the inciting incident the story seems to lean toward a Mormonistic ideal, though. This idea is that the Son, Jesus, was originally an angel that was sent out of heaven to earth, where he had work to do. In Ocarina of Time the Great Deku Tree calls Link to leave Kokiri Forest and enter the harsh world of Hyrule. He even tells Link he is "like a Son" to him. By they way, is Link a symbol of Courage in Ocarina of Time? Of course. And when the Triforce splits, Link gets the Triforce of Courage on his wrist. But Link is far from godly, and I've mentioned these things before. Any comparisons to be made between OoT and the Bible are entirely superficial. And didn't the Deku tree die? How uncharacteristic of a God said to be all-powerful. Link is told that he must find the Princess Zelda. When Zelda sees Link, she mentions that she saw him before in a dream. In this dream there was a dark cloud that covered Hyrule in darkness. Suddenly, a ray of light split the cloud, and out of this light came the form of Link himself. The way the dream is described suggests a prophecy. It is iconic of the prophecy of the coming of Christ. So basically, in a sense, Link is symbolic of the coming of Jesus. If it's possible to stretch something far enough to be believable like that. Tell me, where is the extreme amount of persecution of Link, outside of Ganondorf? Where is his death and resurrection? Where were the three wise men, or King Herod sending his men forcing Link's parents and him into hiding? At one point in the story, Link must open up the room at the back of the Temple of Time. In order to do this, he gathers together three jewels; one from the Of which, there were 12. Not to mention the exclusion of the Gerudos' and Hylians' jewels. In like manner Link approaches and opens the back room of the temple in OoT, and inside he finds the Master Sword; the blade of light that has the power to defeat darkness. I can't remember, when did the Christ get the blade of evil's bane again? Oh, I suppose you could call his entrance to the Sacred Realm his "death" and exit 7 yrs later his "resurrection" but they hold little similarity to either things. You would do much, MUCH better comparing MM to biblical events. I might even have agreed with you on MM, and I definitely think it the superior game to OoT, both as a game and "art form" as you've called OoT. In the end, the Controlling Idea has much to do with the misuse of power. When Ganondorf seizes the Triforce, the land of Hyrule becomes corrupted and dark. Ganondorf wields the Triforce of Power to gain control of Hyrule. Link confronts him at his castle, which looks remarkably like a cathedral from the inside, with stain-glassed windows and Ganondorf playing an organ. The golden goddesses left the Triforce for people to use for justice. In the same way, God left the Holy Bible to bless nations and bring order. And yet, even today people constantly misuse God's word of the Bible in order to gain control. ...of a forum, such as the case is for your comparisons. "which looks remarkably like a cathedral from the inside" has gotta be just one of the worst arguments you've made in the entire post, as many buildings can be compared to cathedrals just on the basis of stain-glassed windows. There are plenty of non-religious buildings that have stain-glass windows, many of them dealing with art or the occult or something completely different. You can't compare OoT to the bible simply because of architectural and aesthetic similarities. And I don't think God left the bible there right when he left, nor was the fall of man from grace mentioned or alluded to. Nope, man wrote the bible whilst receiving inspiration from the Holy Spirit (if you believe in Christianity, that is). That's what it's about. There are many other themes that resonate as well, but it takes a long while to mention them all, as it is with a lot of other games. Think about it. Storyline and controlling idea is ultimately what really attracts people to games. Look at Bioshock. Look at Final Fantasy X. Look at Grand Theft Auto, even. Each one of these games has a controlling idea or theme that it conveys to the gamer, and it's an essential element of structure. An element that is strangely missing in Twilight Princess. It was fun, but there wasn't much of a point. I completely disagree with you. On everything in the post. It'd take too long to list all the reasons, but if you really want me to then tell me. I'll list a couple, though. TP is far more comparable to biblical events than OoT, in every single way. Interlopers=fall of man, cut off from access to the Garden of Eden when tempted to sin (or the Sacred Realm, when tempted to steal the forbidden fruit known as the Triforce). People drifting through life as spirits, not knowing they are doomed and condemned and needing a savior=people needing God to send His Son, who saves all of mankind from their eternal damnation, otherwise known as Twilight, or sin. Twilight Realm can equate to hell, in the way that the interlopers were condemned to it after their rebellion against the goddesses, similar to Satan's rebellion against the Lord God Almighty, though this is a weaker similarity as not all Twili are evil nor can even be considered evil. But it does work with God's own words about those who obey and those who don't, from Exodus 20:5-6... Quote He says, "I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me [note: the interlopers, or Twili], but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments [note: the Hylians]."It makes for a much better argument that the Twili are merely being punished for the sins of their ancestors, as they have become more sedate about matters. Really, TP serves as a much better allegory for the Bible than OoT. In fact, pretty much all console games after OoT take a good deal of their material from the Bible. If you want symbolism towards biblical stories, look no further than OoT's sequels, as OoT itself does not do a very good job in terms of specifics. TP holds down pretty much just a short while before the Flood, while OoT jumps all over the place and can't make up its mind about anything. In this way, I cannot possibly consider OoT to be allegorical of the Bible in any way, shape, or form. Damn, that was a long post. Sorry about that. Santuli June 18, 2008, 12:34 PM I had a lot to say about those last two posts but instead I got lost reading the article on Stone Tower and MM's message. I had read a summary of the theory before (at leat the Stone Towers part), but that article was just amazing...
Somebody had commented on that site that he felt sad when he reached the end of hte article. Hehe, me too. It was just too good...really amazing, honestly. I dont usually believe in these kinds of theories so easily, but this one...I wasnt even half way done with it and I was ready to accept everything the author came up with. Really great, makes me want to play the game again. And I followed another person's suggestion there, and read it as I listened to this: The OoT theory...bah, whether its true or not, it pales in comparison to MM...enough said, indeed... ebuch June 19, 2008, 06:28 PM I have been pretty well satisfied with most Zelda games that have come out. Especially the ones with great emotional, and in depth storylines. That's what I would like to see a bigger improvement on in the future. Phantom Hourglass didn't really live up to it's hype as being the sequel to the (in my opinion) game with the best emotional storyline. Wind Waker. The modernization of the series doesn't help it out much either... less and less magic and more and more realistic items. It isn't all bad I guess, but the only thing that came close to magic in Phantom Hourglass was the giant hammer thingy... (i forgot the name). Everything else, were real things, take out the bombchus but they could exist unlike magical items. Hope to see something great come E3, if they announce any Zelda at all...
.Acid June 20, 2008, 03:30 PM I'm pretty sure Zelda will live on. And hopefully they'll announce a new title at E3 next month.
StackThatCheese June 21, 2008, 02:55 PM LOL all of your arguments in this conversation are so dumb. give up all of you.
And whoever said BioShock was immersive is on crack. I played through that game ina few days. overrated as hell. it was an everyday shooter with boring combat and good graphics. orange box or SMG was easily GOTY last year. GTA4 isnt to good either compared to the older ones,the ares were bland and the reasliticness of the walking and driving was annoying as hell. mGS4 is the best game of this generation, best graphics, story, presentation, and FUN ASS gameplay. and OOT takes the cake in StackThatCheese June 21, 2008, 02:55 PM LOL all of your arguments in this conversation are so dumb. give up all of you.
And whoever said BioShock was immersive is on crack. I played through that game ina few days. overrated as hell. it was an everyday shooter with boring combat and good graphics. orange box or SMG was easily GOTY last year. GTA4 isnt to good either compared to the older ones,the ares were bland and the reasliticness of the walking and driving was annoying as hell. mGS4 is the best game of this generation, best graphics, story, presentation, and FUN ASS gameplay. and OOT takes the cake in well made games. graphics and sound were top game back then, controls still beat out modern day variations, story was the most complex of the zelda stories until then, and the basic form that the games afetr take from. .Acid June 21, 2008, 04:42 PM Wow mister smart guy posted the same thing twice.
lurch028 June 21, 2008, 08:27 PM But Link is far from godly, and I've mentioned these things before. Any comparisons to be made between OoT and the Bible are entirely superficial. And didn't the Deku tree die? How uncharacteristic of a God said to be all-powerful.didn't jesus die as well? not to mention a new Deku tree is born at the end of the game... conveniently forgot to mention that. cen June 21, 2008, 08:36 PM whats up amigos
bloodsteam June 24, 2008, 10:12 PM Perhaps I stretched the truth a bit when I claimed that OoT was a "Recreation" of the Bible. But the symbolism is still there. After all, a symbol isn't suppose to reflect something in every way, just call attention to a certain specific aspect.
By the way, my theory about the Cathedral can't be all that far off. If the dark-red rug, the stain-glass windows, the walls, and the organ all seem to allude to a cathedral, chances are it's on purpose. And lurch is right about the Deku Tree, that's something I forgot to mention earlier. And whoever says, "Any comparisons to be made between OoT and the Bible are entirely superficial. " doesn't(not to be mean or anything) know what he's talking about. Here's a quote from a religious studies website that, strangely enough, seemed to come to alot of the same conclusions as I did. Here's what a writer had to say about the similarities between Link and Jesus: "1. Link was raised in obscurity. Akin to Moses, Jesus, Superman. 2. Is supposed to "Save his People" = "Messiah" "Moses, Jesus, Superman" 3. Has to undo an apocalyptic event. Reverse Gannon's turning the world into his Dark world filled with monsters and demons and zombies. Gannon basically turns Hyrule into Hell, or a hell. Jesus reverses Death and saves humans from Hell. 4. Link has to Grow up to do it. He enters the Temple of Time and is sealed away for 7 years where he can finally take up the mantle of the Hero of Time and achieve his destiny. In the Gospels it seems that Jesus jumps from being a 12 year old boy at the temple to a 30 something year old man at the height of his ministry. I know that Jesus didn't magically go from 12-30 but that part of his life is not recorded. 5. Link originally carried a Cross shield, Cross=Christ. I know I have already said that this doesn't mean that Link is a Christian figure, but Link is an Icon, and as such relating him with other such iconic imagery might suggest Morality or Virtues that can be associated with Link. All I am trying to do is draw lines, not necessarily make conclusions. 6. Link dies and comes back to Life (often, if you don’t watch his heart meter, its game over if you don’t have a fairy [conduit of the Goddesses' power]) who else is 'famous' for this resurrection act? Jesus. While Link's saving act is not necessarily related to his death, he does 'die' and come back for more, until he completes his task. 7. Sacrificial Love. Link has to sacrifice himself and his own wants and desires to take up this quest and fulfill his destiny to save others. There are 'women' who fall in love with Link (Saria, Ruto, Malon), but he must leave them behind to ultimately save them. 8. Link as a Hylian has Pointed ears so that they can hear the voices of the Goddesses. Jesus talks to and hears from God all the time. In Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, in order to get into one of the Temple/Dungeons Link reads from the sacred Book of Mudora, takes off his hat, kneels and crosses himself in a Triangular fashion and prays. The Temple/Dungeon opens up for Link only after he prays. 9. The Items that Link uses, some of them could be symbolic, For instance: The Cane of Byrna, looks like a Shepherds Crook. Jesus is often referred to as the Good Shepherd. The Cane of Somaria for the same reasons. The Master Sword is a Holy Sword that is also called Evil's Bane. The master's word, Jesus' tongue is said to be a two edged sword that cuts through sin. The Book of Mudora is similar to a Bible. With the Hover Boots equipped you can walk on/over water for a brief period of time. Jesus could walk on water. Link tames a wild horse, Jesus could make the lion lay down with the lamb. Anyways having said all of that, all I am trying to do is to show Link as an Iconic Messianic type Hero not unlike Jesus. I am not really trying to say that Link is Jesus, but that in the Universe of the Legend of Zelda, Link performs the same functions. Link is not worshipped in the Legend of Zelda, but the Hero of Time is a venerated and expected coming figure. sort of in the way that Jesus is expected to return Link or rather the Hero of Time who Link becomes is expected to return or rise up to defeat Evil when ever it threatens the Peace of Hyrule. " That may not mean much yet, but bear with me. Here's a quote about the Triforce: "Trinities in The Legend of Zelda Universe: 1. Power, Wisdom, Courage = the Triforce 2. Din, Nayru, Farore= The Three Goddesses 3. Gannon, Zelda and Link= The Three Main Characters and representatives of the three triangles of the Triforce. Gannon= Power, Zelda= Wisdom and Link= Courage. Symbols of The Power of Three in our world: 1. Father, Son, Holy Spirit = the Holy Trinity 2. The Star of David. = Symbol of Judaism Made up of interlocking triangles. 3. The Star and Crescent. (Not representative of a Tri-unity, Islam is strictly Monotheistic but you will see where I am going with this in the Religious Symbols section) There is great significance placed upon the Triforce in the Legend of Zelda games, it is the sacred artifact that hold part of the Goddesses Power. If someone were to obtain the Triforce they would manifest one of the Powers according to their Heart's desire. For instance Gannon when he takes the Triforce it breaks and he receives great power, because he has the will and desire for domination within his heart. Zelda holds the Triforce of Wisdom and Link has the Triforce of Courage. Uniting these three parts The Triforce; Power, Wisdom and Courage would make Gannon unstoppable, A.K.A a god. That Gannon would destroy Hyrule and make a Dark World in its place. The Royal Family (Princess Zelda) and the seven sages are the protectors of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce. Link is the Destined Hero of Time who must take Heart (Courage) to defeat the evil Gannon once and for all (apparently c. 14 times) ---Lucky for us, playing the game gives Link the Courage to fight, as Link learns we learn wise things like " Every "Boss" has a weakness, usually Glowing and only left unprotected at regular intervals, Try using a weapon or Item you have collected or just keep slashing with your Master Sword till it dies...or till you notice the weak spot. Always have Medicine of Magic, and Fairies in your bottles you never know when you will need to be ressurected. " (For more check out the All I have learned, I have learned from the Legend of Zelda Facebook Group) And with this Knowledge/Wisdom Link gathers the Items he will need to have the Power to defeat Gannon. The Triforce is the combined powers of three Goddesses, upon the combination of the three 'Thirds' increases their power not merely by a power of three but by a much greater factor than that. Also known as a Tri-unity or Trinity. The connection between these three parts strengthens the whole. so for instance the three triangles of the Triforce when united represent the power of the Goddesses. separately, each triangle would raise your power, but together Godlike power is your to be claimed and used, for Good or Evil. In the Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past there is a Chruch that is called Sanctuary, where for a While the King and Zelda do take refuge. it looks like a Christian Church in all respects save one, The places where one would expect to see a Cross, have been replaced by the Triforce. Coincidence? maybe...But it does seem quite likely that this was done on purpose. Chruch=Sanctuary, A Safe Haven protected from Evil. Perhaps we are supposed to think that the Triforce = The Cross in some fashion..." This is pretty clear evidence - if not proof - of my argument that that symbolism and icons from the Bible were implemented in the making of the Zelda Universe, and Ocarina of Time. bloodsteam June 24, 2008, 10:35 PM Personally, I think it would be pretty neat and benificial if they released a SciFi Zelda. It would be interesting to see just how the Zelda scenario works a few thousand years into the future, plus nostalgia and homages to older games in the series could make more sense. Zelda's been getting alot of heat lately for not adapting and changing, and I think they should do this just once, just to shake things up. Not that it would be a first-person shooter; the basic gameplay elements would be the same - including icons like the Master Sword and Triforce - there would just be a different kind of environment. Plus Link could get to ride a futuristic motorcycle(preferably something like a street ninja), potentially. It would be refreshing to get to use a scifi-sh see-through shield and a laser-gun instead of a bow, just once.
Does this make sense? Anyway, it's just a thought. link182 June 25, 2008, 11:05 AM "1. Link was raised in obscurity. Akin to Moses, Jesus, Superman.Uh... how were the other three raised in obscurity, Moses especially? I dunno, wasn't he sorta raised as a prince of Egypt? I mean, your use of obscure is quite the opposite of its definition. And how was Supes going to save his people, who died on Krypton? You could count the earthlings, but they aren't really his people in the same sense of the word. And your misuse of "apocalypse" is something one sees quite often lately, so I can't really blame you for getting it wrong now. But the correct definition of apocalypse is "lifting of the veil," and it wasn't really an apocalyptic event in any sense of the word, as its effects were neither lasting nor all-destructive. I mean, Ganon's not done anything that hasn't been undone soon afterward by Link. And the real apocalypse (the Biblical one, I mean) is sorta just judgment of everyone and then they get sent to heaven or hell. It's permanent, unlike Ganon's "apocalypse". And I would very much like to see the link to this site, as most "religious studies" tend to stretch the truth to egregious amounts. 4. Link has to Grow up to do it. He enters the Temple of Time and is sealed away for 7 years where he can finally take up the mantle of the Hero of Time and achieve his destiny. In the Gospels it seems that Jesus jumps from being a 12 year old boy at the temple to a 30 something year old man at the height of his ministry. I know that Jesus didn't magically go from 12-30 but that part of his life is not recorded.That is a very weak example. Very weak. And guess what, it along with everything else you've mentioned falls perfectly in line with the definition of superficial, in the context of its usage by moi. I'm not even going to argue the fallacy of this one, it's just too weak an example. Gimme a juicy, hard to disprove example next time. 5. Link originally carried a Cross shield, Cross=Christ. I know I have already said that this doesn't mean that Link is a Christian figure, but Link is an Icon, and as such relating him with other such iconic imagery might suggest Morality or Virtues that can be associated with Link. All I am trying to do is draw lines, not necessarily make conclusions.Crosses were in use as symbols and a form of capital punishment long before even the birth of Jesus, so it's really not definitively linked to Christianity at all. It was used in religions other than Christianity both before and after Jesus went up on one. "All I am trying to do is draw lines." And they're quickly turning into scribbles. Not to be mean or anything like that, I'm just saying that your comparisons and theories hold very little water. 6. Link dies and comes back to Life (often, if you don’t watch his heart meter, its game over if you don’t have a fairy [conduit of the Goddesses' power]) who else is 'famous' for this resurrection act? Jesus. While Link's saving act is not necessarily related to his death, he does 'die' and come back for more, until he completes his task.Resurrections were common in myths and legends and ancient religions far before Jesus ever was resurrected (if you believe Jesus to be the Messiah, that is). And when Jesus was resurrected, that was completing his task, unlike Link. I'm surprised that with your other Superman references you left out the Death and Return of Superman in this one. 7. Sacrificial Love. Link has to sacrifice himself and his own wants and desires to take up this quest and fulfill his destiny to save others. There are 'women' who fall in love with Link (Saria, Ruto, Malon), but he must leave them behind to ultimately save them.I dunno, Link never really showed any emotion towards any of them but Saria (and a bit of disgust or distaste towards Ruto). And when did Jesus leave people behind? Can you come up with a specific passage? 8. Link as a Hylian has Pointed ears so that they can hear the voices of the Goddesses. Jesus talks to and hears from God all the time. In Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, in order to get into one of the Temple/Dungeons Link reads from the sacred Book of Mudora, takes off his hat, kneels and crosses himself in a Triangular fashion and prays. The Temple/Dungeon opens up for Link only after he prays.This one has absolutely nothing to do with OoT. Hell yes, just about every other Zelda game has Biblical references and allusions, but OoT doesn't really have all that many. You'll do well to not argue about things that we're agreed upon, as it's a completely stupid action. It's like I say "The sky is blue" and then you say "Nuh-uh, you're wrong, it's blue." 9. The Items that Link uses, some of them could be symbolic, For instance: The Cane of Byrna, looks like a Shepherds Crook. Jesus is often referred to as the Good Shepherd. The Cane of Somaria for the same reasons. The Master Sword is a Holy Sword that is also called Evil's Bane. The master's word, Jesus' tongue is said to be a two edged sword that cuts through sin. The Book of Mudora is similar to a Bible. With the Hover Boots equipped you can walk on/over water for a brief period of time. Jesus could walk on water. Link tames a wild horse, Jesus could make the lion lay down with the lamb.Cane of Byrna=not in OoT. Cane of Somaria=not in OoT. Hover boots=limited amount of time, and has nothing to do with faith that you can walk on water. And could Link ever make a Lion-o (Thundercats reference, to be read simply as though I'd typed lion instead) lay down with a lamb? That's like saying "That guy can mow the lawn with his lawnmower, so he must have a lot in common with an airplane pilot." The master sword one was actually a fairly decent example, for once. Anyways having said all of that, all I am trying to do is to show Link as an Iconic Messianic type Hero not unlike Jesus. I am not really trying to say that Link is Jesus, but that in the Universe of the Legend of Zelda, Link performs the same functions. Link is not worshipped in the Legend of Zelda, but the Hero of Time is a venerated and expected coming figure.Hmm... not really. You could easily compare any prominent figure with Jesus, you could even compare Hitler with Jesus. I mean, Nazi Germany was a "Christian" country, right? So easily for them it would be to compare their fuhrer with the Christ, as he saved them from many things in the wake of the loss of land, the heavy reparations, and the perceived national embarrassment imposed through the Treaty of Versailles which ended World War I. Following civil unrest, the worldwide economic depression of the 1930s spurred by the stock market crash in the US, the counter-traditionalism of the Weimar period, and the rise of communism in Germany, many voters began turning their support towards the Nazi Party with its promises of strong government, civil peace, radical changes to economic policy, and restored national pride. The National Socialist party promised cultural renewal based on traditionalism, and it proposed military rearmament in opposition to the Treaty of Versailles; the National Socialist claimed that in the Treaty of Versailles and the liberal democracy of the Weimar Republic, Germany's national pride had been lost.. The Nazis also endorsed the Dolchstoßlegende ("Stab in the back legend") which figured prominently in their propaganda as it did in propaganda of most other nationalist-leaning parties in Germany. So really, to them, Hitler and all the others were heroes. They're obviously not heroes to most people these days, as their evil and malice were fully exposed, but they perceived them to be back then. So you get my point, I hope, that comparing Jesus with anyone non-Biblical will be filled with too much subjectivity to accurately be done. sort of in the way that Jesus is expected to return Link or rather the Hero of Time who Link becomes is expected to return or rise up to defeat Evil when ever it threatens the Peace of Hyrule.All's okay there, not really all that great of a comparison, but here's the part where it starts breaking up completely... Uniting these three parts The Triforce; Power, Wisdom and Courage would make Gannon unstoppable, A.K.A a god. That Gannon would destroy Hyrule and make a Dark World in its place. The Royal Family (Princess Zelda) and the seven sages are the protectors of the Sacred Realm and the Triforce.See, now you've inadvertently done two things which are completely flawed and destroy any semblance of argument you've got. You've (again, I stress inadvertently) compared God the Father to Ganon, by way of making the comparison between the Triforce and other things just way too long to list, and you've also (inadvertently) made the statement that Jesus and the Holy Spirit end up having to protect the people from God's wrath by sealing him away in the Dark Realm. But I'll get to these in a moment. Link is the Destined Hero of Time who must take Heart (Courage) to defeat the evil Gannon once and for all (apparently c. 14 times) ---Lucky for us, playing the game gives Link the Courage to fight, as Link learns we learn wise things like " Every "Boss" has a weakness, usually Glowing and only left unprotected at regular intervals, Try using a weapon or Item you have collected or just keep slashing with your Master Sword till it dies...or till you notice the weak spot. Always have Medicine of Magic, and Fairies in your bottles you never know when you will need to be ressurected. " (For more check out the All I have learned, I have learned from the Legend of Zelda Facebook Group)Completely random and off-topic in every way, it only makes your argument worse by throwing it in the middle of your pivotal point you're trying to make. And with this Knowledge/Wisdom Link gathers the Items he will need to have the Power to defeat Gannon. The Triforce is the combined powers of three Goddesses, upon the combination of the three 'Thirds' increases their power not merely by a power of three but by a much greater factor than that. Also known as a Tri-unity or Trinity. The connection between these three parts strengthens the whole. so for instance the three triangles of the Triforce when united represent the power of the Goddesses. separately, each triangle would raise your power, but together Godlike power is your to be claimed and used, for Good or Evil.When's this part happen in the Bible, again? Anyway... In the Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past there is a Chruch that is called Sanctuary, where for a While the King and Zelda do take refuge. it looks like a Christian Church in all respects save one, The places where one would expect to see a Cross, have been replaced by the Triforce. Coincidence? maybe...But it does seem quite likely that this was done on purpose. Chruch=Sanctuary, A Safe Haven protected from Evil.Yeah, it was done on purpose. I mean, can you name ANY church not bearing the symbol of its god or deity? Nope, notta one except for the Mormons, I think, who actually have the good idea of not worshipping a cross, as it is merely the symbol of the God and not the God itself. But there have been many sanctuaries predating the Christ, and many (most, in fact) bear the symbol the people have given their deity. And guess what else? Just about all "holy places" be they holy or not, are considered a safe haven from evil, regardless of religion. And again... I'M NOT F***ING ARGUING ABOUT BIBLICAL ALLUSIONS IN OTHER GAMES! I'm arguing about the lack of them in OoT, which you say it does have but then instead provide evidence for something already said (by me, in fact) to be true and agreed by the two parties to be true. It's just sheer stupidity. I mean, I don't want to call you stupid, but... the whole thing where you argue the sky is blue and we've both already said it is is getting quite old, quite fast. Perhaps we are supposed to think that the Triforce = The Cross in some fashion...No, not at all, there have been a bazillion other religious symbols predating the cross by thousands of years. It isn't a very good example of yours at all, and despite this, you keep arguing that it is. This is pretty clear evidence - if not proof - of my argument that that symbolism and icons from the Bible were implemented in the making of the Zelda Universe, and Ocarina of Time.It is neither evidence nor proof of anything but that people can argue something that is without merit or truth. The only reference even close to OoT alluding to the Bible or Biblical events is the Master Sword, something carried over from previous games. I will say that many biblical things were used in almost every Zelda game, but to say they were in OoT would be stretching it about thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis much. Santuli June 25, 2008, 12:26 PM LOL all of your arguments in this conversation are so dumb. give up all of you. I find it hard to take someone who calls us dumb, has spelling a grammar usage problems, posts something twice in a row, and has that combination of avy and siggy seriously. Now that's just me, but yea... Try explaining yourself first, please -_- Well...I think link182 took care of that, huh? I would have said something, but there isn't much to say, and my knowledge of religious affairs would not help one bit :p link182 June 25, 2008, 12:56 PM I dunno that I got anything done, really, but I posted my opinion on the matter. Not saying his opinion is wrong, I just need a bit more evidence to support it in order to see it as plausible. bloodsteam, that is, not double posting StackThatCheese...
LOL all of your arguments in this conversation are so dumb. give up all of you.It's funny cause it's not! And I just noticed there's a difference between the posts, albeit subtle... and OOT takes the cake in well made games. graphics and sound were top game back then, controls still beat out modern day variations, story was the most complex of the zelda stories until then, and the basic form that the games afetr take from.I like the way he phrases it, so that he's saying OoT's better but then saying "for its time" to throw the unobservant reader off. Controls do NOT beat modern variations; every game since OoT has drastically improved the controls (the 3D games, at least). And I submit to you that OoT takes after Super Mario 64, as it uses a heavily modified version of SM64's engine! En guarde! Silliness is set to stun now, hopefully I won't end up whipping it out and blasting some random Starfleet dudes. Santuli June 25, 2008, 01:45 PM Well...I happen to like your opinion better than the other one. Religious allusions seem to pop up everywhere. Often its just people seriously stretching facts to fit them into the allusions they say they see. Everytime I read about religious allusions being made, the word 'cliche' instantly pops up in my mind (not necessarily about the allusions being religious, but about people seeing them, whether they're real or not).
Then again, that article you gave a link to about MM...THAT ONE was convincing (and VERY well written...) Wind June 25, 2008, 01:57 PM Perhaps I stretched the truth a bit when I claimed that OoT was a "Recreation" of the Bible. But the symbolism is still there. After all, a symbol isn't suppose to reflect something in every way, just call attention to a certain specific aspect. I'm sorry, but I really hate it when people compare something non-religious to the bible. Something can be good without being religious. I really dislike it when people compare ANYTHING good to make it religious. Don't get me wrong, I'm religious, but I just don't like stuff like this... Santuli June 25, 2008, 02:15 PM Basically my thoughts!
I have a hard time believing Zelda as a whole is a biblical allusion, especially when Miyamoto said he based his creation on some of his childhood experiences (like walking through the woods or something). Fine, maybe there are some religious references, whether intended or not, but they're few. Many of the elements bloodsteam mentioned can be found in any other story of the type of Zelda (a fantasy tale of a hero saving the land from a bad guy). bloodsteam June 25, 2008, 02:28 PM Okay, the first quote in your post isn't concrete at all, I'll admit that.
Jesus and Link both having to grow up to achieve their duty is an undeniable similarity, and I don't know of any other game where an event similar to Link's growing up in order to fight takes place. If you know of one please tell me. It's not the most solid argument, but it is a point. So you're saying that in the early zelda games when you're called to take up your sword and shield and save Zelda, the cross on your shield stands for punishment? And the cross being replaced by the triforce in OoT is a coincidence? And what the functions of a cross were before Christ's death isn't necessarily relevant, as in this society people commonly associate the cross with Christianity. I guess alot of the quotes I inserted were fluff(sorry about that) until the Triforce part. Firstly, I don't agree that Ganondorf represents God. Secondly, even if he DID represent God - which I don't believe he does - it doesn't mean that symbolic icons weren't implemented. Sorry about the off-topic. You're right; wasn't a smart thing to do. The next bit wasn't all that relevant either. I apologize. Again, the fact that religious symbols predate Christianity doesn't mean that Cross wasn't supposed to equal Triforce in the Zelda universe. And if it's true that this was intentional - and that the cross being replaced by the triforce on Link's shield isn't a coincidence - then we can probably assume that alot of other symbolism is intentional as well. Let's review my points real quick. "A cutscene near the beginning of the game illustrates the creation of Hyrule. It is described that the three golden goddesses descended and shaped the swirling, watery Hyrule into an orderly form. This is clearly symbolic of the Trinity - or God, who is described in the Bible as the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, one person, equal in power and glory - creating the universe and setting the space-time continuum into motion. In OoT, the golden goddesses are called the goddesses of Wisom, Power, and Courage. In the Bible, the Father is greatly symbolic of Power, the Son is greatly symbolic of Courage, and the Holy Spirit is symbolic of Wisdom." "You start out as the main character, Link, who lives in Kokiri Forest. He lives among Kokiri, young children who never grow old. I think it's pretty clear that Kokiri Forest represents some kind of Heaven or Paradise. It's not too hard... In Ocarina of Time the Great Deku Tree calls Link to leave Kokiri Forest and enter the harsh world of Hyrule. He even tells Link he is "like a Son" to him. By they way, is Link a symbol of Courage in Ocarina of Time? Of course. And when the Triforce splits, Link gets the Triforce of Courage on his wrist." Your question was "where is God or his angels?" It's pretty clear that Deku Tree is symbolic of God in a sense and the fairies are symbolic of angels. It's certain that fairies are subject to the Tree's will, as he tells Navi to go fetch Link. And don't many Christians believe that there are angels watching over them, and guiding them in a sense? This is exactly what the fairies do for the Kokiri. You also mentioned that the Deku Tree dies, but we also see that he resurrects later in the game due to Link's efforts. Not to say that God is solely dependent on the Son, but just because something is a symbol of another thing doesn't mean it reflects it in every aspect. You also mentioned the fact that the three goddesses also represented God, but I wouldn't say that multi-layered symbolism is necessarily bad storytelling, and it doesn't disprove the implementation of biblical icons. "When Zelda sees Link, she mentions that she saw him before in a dream. In this dream there was a dark cloud that covered Hyrule in darkness. Suddenly, a ray of light split the cloud, and out of this light came the form of Link himself. The way the dream is described suggests a prophecy. It is iconic of the prophecy of the coming of Christ. So basically, in a sense, Link is symbolic of the coming of Jesus." I should have mentioned that in the dream Link emerges from the ray of light with a fairy hovering beside him. Am I too far off to consider that this may be reminiscent of the dove coming down at the time of Jesus' baptism? Mathew 3:16, "Lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him." And by the way, Ganondorf knew of the prophecy and did attempt to kill Link when he was a newborn. His mother fled the city to save Link's life. "In like manner Link approaches and opens the back room of the temple in OoT, and inside he finds the Master Sword; the blade of light that has the power to defeat darkness." Like you're going to spend the entire game getting 12 jewels. And the Gerudo is symbolic of Islam. In the Fire Temple in Gerudo there's chanting in the backround, "Allahu Akbar", meaning, "Allah is the greatest." Interestingly enough, Ganondorf, the enemy, is of the Gerudo tribe. Hmm. Just thinking out loud. Definition of Allegorical: 1. used in or characteristic of or containing allegory; "allegorical stories"; "an allegorical painting of Victory leading an army" 2. standing for something else; "the bald eagle is representative of the United States" From another source(tnellen.com): "'Allegory is a form of extended metaphor, in which objects, persons, and actions in a narrative, are equated with the meanings that lie outside the narrative itself. The underlying meaning has moral, social, religious, or political significance, and characters are often personifications of abstract ideas as charity, greed, or envy.' Thus an allegory is a story with two meanings, a literal meaning and a symbolic meaning." I disagree with the statement that Ocarina of Time cannot, "be allegorical of the Bible in any way, shape, or form." There have been icons from the Bible in past Zelda games(you agreed yourself), and I think it's safe to assume that the imagery in Ocarina of Time was intentional as well. bloodsteam June 25, 2008, 02:52 PM "Fine, maybe there are some religious references, whether intended or not, but they're few. Many of the elements bloodsteam mentioned can be found in any other story of the type of Zelda (a fantasy tale of a hero saving the land from a bad guy)."
No, that was Twilight Princess, not Ocarina of Time. You can see(probably intentional) resonating ideas from the Bible in Twilight Princess(as I believe link mentioned), but the imagery is more specific in OoT. For example, someone may say Spiderman is christian because Peter Parker is symbolic of Jesus because he saves people. This is absurd of course. It's like what Santuli said about "a fantasy tale of a hero saving the land from a bad guy". However, someone else may bring up the scene in Spiderman 3 where the first thing you see is the cross at the top of a cathedral, and Spiderman sits at the top of the tower below the cross, his head bowed in contemplation. Peter contemplates his faith, not wanting to be controlled by the antagonist of the story, Venom. This is no doubt intentional imagery, and you can usually pretty safely assume that the writer was a Christian. "A fantasy tale of a hero saving the land from a bad guy," well describes Twilight Princess. In TP you're just a kid in a village somewhere, that happens to be destined to save Hyrule. But the case is far from that in Ocarina of Time. It's much more specifically detailed, as I've already demonstrated in the above post. Wind June 25, 2008, 02:56 PM For example, someone may say Spiderman is christian because Peter Parker is symbolic of Jesus because he saves people. This is absurd of course. Not much more than the zelda thing... bloodsteam June 25, 2008, 03:02 PM Maybe if you'd clarify what the "zelda thing" is, you'd make sense.
Santuli June 25, 2008, 04:31 PM If by the prohecy you mean Zelda's dream, how could Ganondorf have known it? Link was taken to Kokiri Forest when he was a baby, meaning Zelda was one as well.
Quote In TP you're just a kid in a village somewhere, that happens to be destined to save Hyrule. But the case is far from that in Ocarina of Time. It's much more specifically detailed, as I've already demonstrated in the above post. Just a kid that happens to be destined to save Hyrule...I like youre phrasing. It really undermines the whole issue. It felt the same for Link, except it took him longer to realize he was the hero that was supposed to get rid of Ganondorf. What's more specifically detailed in OoT? I dont see what in your post sets apart Link in OoT from Link in TP. Both come from obscure backgrounds, as you said before, come from a village having more or less ordinary lives and one day they set off on a huge journey, meet a princess, face Ganondorf, find the Master Sword, hold the Triforce of Courage, and save Hyrule...from Ganondorf Quote "A cutscene near the beginning of the game illustrates the creation of Hyrule. It is described that the three golden goddesses descended and shaped the swirling, watery Hyrule into an orderly form. This is clearly symbolic of the Trinity - or God, who is described in the Bible as the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, one person, equal in power and glory - creating the universe and setting the space-time continuum into motion. In OoT, the golden goddesses are called the goddesses of Wisom, Power, and Courage. In the Bible, the Father is greatly symbolic of Power, the Son is greatly symbolic of Courage, and the Holy Spirit is symbolic of Wisdom." I dont know. I mean, I see the goddesses each being separate, since each gives her own contribution to the creation of Hyrule. And saying the Father is symbolic of Power just makes me think that Ganondorf, the holder of the ToP, is symbolic of the Father (maybe that's how link182 took your words to say that you were implying that Ganondorf is symbolic of God). Arent you saying a lot of different things are symbolic of a lot of other things? First Link is Jesus ('is' as in 'is symbolic of'), but then TGDT is like Jesus because he is resurrected. Then the 3 goddesses are symbolic of God by his three names you mentioned, but then each holder of each Triforce would have to be symbolic of God as well...but all three names you said are still part of the same God, where in Hyrule there are 3 (although I guess you can say the 3 are like the 3 names of God you mentioned). You said fairies are angels but also the spirit of God. You alo said that a church would be like a safe haven, but how would that go with the cathedral-like room Ganon resides, who I'm still not sure who he is supposed to represent when the ToP is symbolic of the Father. The whole goddesses of Hyrule and the Triforce are part of many Zelda games, so if thats allegorical, then its not unique to OoT. All the other possible references are few and vey disconnected. Usuaully, when I read or watch something that is supposed to be a biblical allegory, all those references are more aparent and connected. And to be honest, I wouldn't have expected that from Zelda. The crosses I'm not sure, but the very first Zelda had a shield with a cross, yet the Triforce was also there. The fact that the Triforce is now there...I dont think it means much. If you think about it, which shield has the Triforce on it? The Hylian Shield. All th shields with crosses are not specifically Hylian made. Most are simple wooden shields. link182 did say that they were used as a form of capital punishment, but also as symbols...before Christianity... And again, maybe it doesn mean anything. A lot of medieval-esque games have knights with shields that have a cross. The most concrete evide.nce you suggested, in my opinion, makes OoT about as biblically allegorical as TP Wind June 25, 2008, 04:42 PM Maybe if you'd clarify what the "zelda thing" is, you'd make sense. Sorry, in other words, your "zelda idea". link182 June 25, 2008, 06:03 PM Jesus and Link both having to grow up to achieve their duty is an undeniable similarity, and I don't know of any other game where an event similar to Link's growing up in order to fight takes place. If you know of one please tell me. It's not the most solid argument, but it is a point. Let's see... Dragon Warrior 3 (sort of, you start out as a 16-year-old), Pokemon (again, on a smaller scale of aging than OoT)... I know there's more, and pretty much all of them are RPGs, so I guess I could look some more... Yeah, it's not fun going through lists of thousands of RPGs just to find something, so I'll give you that it makes OoT fairly unique in terms of video game child-to-adult protagonists. Still not a very good argument, as you've said. So you're saying that in the early zelda games when you're called to take up your sword and shield and save Zelda, the cross on your shield stands for punishment? And the cross being replaced by the triforce in OoT is a coincidence? And what the functions of a cross were before Christ's death isn't necessarily relevant, as in this society people commonly associate the cross with Christianity. Yes, but just because many people do doesn't mean that Ninty did. Think about it, the cross is central to many religions, very, very, very many religions. It's featured prominently in Dragon Warrior 3 as well (one of my favorite games, though I prefer the GBC remake), but it doesn't go and say "zomg it's a cross it's central to the plot in some way and therefore allegorical of bible dudes!" It's just a very well-known religious symbol is all that is. I wasn't saying it was a symbol of punishment or retribution, just that it wasn't a symbol of anything in those games' contexts. They simply later decided "Hey, wouldn't he really have a Triforce on it instead?" and nixed the cross from the shield. I guess alot of the quotes I inserted were fluff(sorry about that) until the Triforce part. Firstly, I don't agree that Ganondorf represents God. Secondly, even if he DID represent God - which I don't believe he does - it doesn't mean that symbolic icons weren't implemented. Well, no, I didn't say you did believe that Ganon=God, merely that the phrasing and symbolic references you used inadvertently implied that. Again, the fact that religious symbols predate Christianity doesn't mean that Cross wasn't supposed to equal Triforce in the Zelda universe. And if it's true that this was intentional - and that the cross being replaced by the triforce on Link's shield isn't a coincidence - then we can probably assume that alot of other symbolism is intentional as well. Let's review my points real quick. Yes, they can use symbols without giving the symbols the power others do. For example, I can paint a big red "S" on my blue T-shirt and not actually have it have anything to do with Superman at all. But the symbolism remains superficial, which I'll just paste the definition here from Merriam-Webster...  "A cutscene near the beginning of the game illustrates the creation of Hyrule. It is described that the three golden goddesses descended and shaped the swirling, watery Hyrule into an orderly form. This is clearly symbolic of the Trinity - or God, who is described in the Bible as the Son, the Father, and the Holy Spirit, one person, equal in power and glory - creating the universe and setting the space-time continuum into motion. In OoT, the golden goddesses are called the goddesses of Wisom, Power, and Courage. In the Bible, the Father is greatly symbolic of Power, the Son is greatly symbolic of Courage, and the Holy Spirit is symbolic of Wisdom." Maybe I didn't phrase this right the first time; you said Link symbolizes Jesus and Deku Tree symbolizes God (the Father). Deku tree dies, God the Father does not. Catch my drift? Plus, the angels of heaven are capable of fighting off about a billion earthly soldiers with only one or two angels in the fray, where as the kokiri are all "ZOMG! he has a whip!" (favorite quote from this site so far) Oops, just finished reading and saw you said the fairies were angels, I thought that you were just rehashing something you'd said before... *ahem* The fairies... eh, I might give you angels on that one, it's iffy though. It's certain that fairies are subject to the Tree's will, as he tells Navi to go fetch Link. And don't many Christians believe that there are angels watching over them, and guiding them in a sense? This is exactly what the fairies do for the Kokiri. ...You win this round, in the case of fairies=angels, it is possible. You also mentioned that the Deku Tree dies, but we also see that he resurrects later in the game due to Link's efforts. Not to say that God is solely dependent on the Son, but just because something is a symbol of another thing doesn't mean it reflects it in every aspect. You also mentioned the fact that the three goddesses also represented God, but I wouldn't say that multi-layered symbolism is necessarily bad storytelling, and it doesn't disprove the implementation of biblical icons. Ah, I can see you've put your thoughts into sentences a lot better than initially, and in some of these contexts I somewhat agree with you, while still on others you've not won me over yet. "When Zelda sees Link, she mentions that she saw him before in a dream. In this dream there was a dark cloud that covered Hyrule in darkness. Suddenly, a ray of light split the cloud, and out of this light came the form of Link himself. The way the dream is described suggests a prophecy. It is iconic of the prophecy of the coming of Christ. So basically, in a sense, Link is symbolic of the coming of Jesus." That last part's pure speculation, you've no evidence to support that statement in-game. Plus, why wouldn't he just kill him when he meets him at the front gate again? It's full of holes, that one. Aye, captain, I've got a bit of a Scotty impersonation going on right now from watching too many Trek episodes. In my mind, these words are given his voice, which is pretty funny actually. Just imagine that Scotty's talking to you right now, and you will soon want to be watching more episodes of Star Trek! *ahem* Sorry 'bout that, I won't break like that again, I promise... Anyway, while it is a bit of a stretch, it's not as big, so at least I can give you props for that. "In like manner Link approaches and opens the back room of the temple in OoT, and inside he finds the Master Sword; the blade of light that has the power to defeat darkness." Yes, but can you prove that's what they were chanting? Gimme a video and show me so I can be certain of your words' authenticity. And if I recall, you only get 10 jewels, not a full 12 to symbolise the 12 tribes of Israel. Interestingly enough, Ganondorf, the enemy, is of the Gerudo tribe. Hmm. Just thinking out loud. Hmm... so the game is anti-Islam propaganda! Just as I expected![/silliness, again, has been a big problem for me today, but it ends there... for now] Definition of Allegorical: 1. used in or characteristic of or containing allegory; "allegorical stories"; "an allegorical painting of Victory leading an army" Yes, but only on a superficial level. I won't budge there until you deepen their meaning somehow. "Fine, maybe there are some religious references, whether intended or not, but they're few. Many of the elements bloodsteam mentioned can be found in any other story of the type of Zelda (a fantasy tale of a hero saving the land from a bad guy)." Imagery and symbolism are often two very different things, and earlier you had a wee bit of a problem distinguishing them, although your more recent post are more fluid and lucid. "A fantasy tale of a hero saving the land from a bad guy," well describes Twilight Princess. In TP you're just a kid in a village somewhere, that happens to be destined to save Hyrule. But the case is far from that in Ocarina of Time. It's much more specifically detailed, as I've already demonstrated in the above post. Not a whole lot, TP Link (imo) more closely resembles the early life and times of Jesus. But later on, not so much. Many things can resemble others while being completely different. Now onto the Santuli portion of our programming! If by the prohecy you mean Zelda's dream, how could Ganondorf have known it? Link was taken to Kokiri Forest when he was a baby, meaning Zelda was one as well. A valid point.
That reminds me of one line from Queen's song for the 1980's Flash Gordon movie (the song's name is Flash): Just a man, who can never fail. Not a big similarity between either things, but it's my favorite line ever, like "Ah, he's just some guy---who never loses at anything!" Aaaaaanyway. Blah, blah, blah, blah... Ah! Something not come to in link182's new post (that would be the one you've been reading, folks. Yes, I inserted this into a Santuli quote, but I didn't change anything he's said, okay? Happy? Satisfied? Good. Let's continue. Usually because Christianity was like, the predominant religion of Europe in Medieval times. The most concrete evide.nce you suggested, in my opinion, makes OoT about as biblically allegorical as TP I somewhat agree there, though I have to think about it... Ah, the portion that is my original ideas has been gotten around to, at last! Now, I have some suggestions for bloodsteam, though I may regret giving fuel to the fire at a later date. Dammit, I get to this part and then just forget it!! Fuck it all to hell, fucking apesh*t asswipes bloody fuckin' A! Argh! I had 'em, right there in my hands, and then just *poof* they're gone. Argh! They may return to me later, I hope, as I was really onto something for a minute there. I like how just about every Zelda thread turns into this big, long debate or argument... And sorry for the long post, fellas. bloodsteam June 25, 2008, 08:45 PM I'm not exactly sure how Ganondorf knew the prophecy too. I'm just quoting the game. Although there is one
theory among Zelda fans that discuss this: If Link was having prophetical nightmares(like we see at the beginning of the game), and Zelda was as well, then the connection is that they were both being called by the Triforce. Remember, when the Triforce split Zelda got the Wisdom piece, Link the Courage, and Ganondorf the Power. If both Zelda and Link got a prophecy, then Ganodorf got one too: that a child was going to be born that would defeat him, or something like that. We could talk about what exactly happened, but that's not the issue. The point is that Ganondorf knew the prophecy of the location of Link's birth, and the game says so. Santuli: "Just a kid that happens to be destined to save Hyrule...I like youre phrasing. It really undermines the whole issue. It felt the same for Link, except it took him longer to realize he was the hero that was supposed to get rid of Ganondorf." The difference is that in TP he's a kid in Orden Village that learns he's the descendant of the Hero of Time. In OoT the Deku Tree governing the Paradise-like Kokiri Forest calls Link, a young boy, his SON, and tells him that he needs to go into the harsh world of Hyrule, grow, and defeat the evil Ganondorf(who's representative of Islam, but we don't need to get into that), who's goal is to abuse the power of the Triforce. Link defeats Ganondorf and disappears, and is known as the Hero of Time who saved people from darkness thereafter. There's many more specific details, of course, some of which I've mentioned in earlier posts. I never said the fairies represented the Holy Spirit. And Ganondorf doesn't represent God, but rather the abuse of God's Power. And it can be abused. I mentioned this before. Corrupted people have spoken in the name of God in order to gain Power; it's perfectly possible and that's clearly what the antagonist in OoT represents. Hence the cathedral-like interior of Ganon's Castle at the end of the game, I believe. Multi-layered symbolism is not all that uncommon in storytelling, and it certainly isn't a flaw, nor does it disprove my argument. Santuli: "Usuaully, when I read or watch something that is supposed to be a biblical allegory, all those references are more aparent and connected. And to be honest, I wouldn't have expected that from Zelda." Not to be harsh, but what does the fact that you wouldn't have expected it have to do with it? Did you expect that the point of the original Star Wars trilogy was to better prepare the minds of America for panthiesm and Zen? George Lucas, the creator, said so himself. But he implemented these things carefully and subtly into the film. Again, he said so himself. Chances are a lot of pantheistic and New Age ideas in country have Star Wars to thank for preparing our minds for it. I like Star Wars, but it's the sad truth. "And again, maybe it doesn't mean anything. A lot of medieval-esque games have knights with shields that have a cross. " Knights that read holy scripture, pray, and help people escape to a church called Sanctuary? Yeah, this is in Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past. Like I said: if these icons/symbols were clearly intentional then, it's pretty safe to assume that at least a good bunch of them were intentional in the sequel: Ocarina of Time. It's seems Santuli has also admitted that OoT IS "biblically allegorical". Just not as much as I think it is. Interesting... I'm with link182 in that I too enjoy these rough debates. I hope no one's feelings have been hurt yet. Let me know when you remember those suggestions, link182. This could get very interesting... Sorry 'bout long post. link182 June 26, 2008, 09:03 AM Well I enjoy them, sure, but I was mostly just making an observation that almost every Zelda thread turns into a debate or argument.
thelegendofmeh June 26, 2008, 06:13 PM why are all of you comparing OoT to the Bible? that's just wrong
link182 June 26, 2008, 06:18 PM I mostly agree, though you can't completely deny the inspiration constantly drawn from the Bible seeping into just about every medium of entertainment. For example, Doctor Leonard Samson gets his gamma-induced strength from the length of his hair, just like Samson of the Bible. And then there're other clear, definitive influences... But no one here is comparing OoT or any Zelda to the Bible, merely arguing about whether or not the Zelda series was inspired or influenced by the Bible. There is a big difference there.
Santuli June 27, 2008, 06:13 PM I'm not exactly sure how Ganondorf knew the prophecy too. I'm just quoting the game. Although there is one You meant that prophecy? I was talking about the one Zelda had and just that. Both were very different kinds of prophecies though. Link's was, like you said, more like a nightmare that foreshadowed a future event very closely (it is idneed very close to what actually happens later) Zelda's was much more abstract. Just pointing something out. But I agree with link182. There is a lot of speculation there. Nothing can point to the fact that Ganondorf had prophetical dreams. In fact, the only reason Ganondorf obtained a piece of the Triforce was just because he reached its resting place, not because he deserved it. I think it was Rauru that said that he was not able to keep all pieces, so he was only left with the one that most closely resembled his heart or ambitions or soemthing (Power). It feels more like he stole the Triforce. He got it through force, while Zelda and Link got it naturally, they were chosen to keep their respective pieces. Ganondorf wasnt. Santuli: "Just a kid that happens to be destined to save Hyrule...I like youre phrasing. It really undermines the whole issue. It felt the same for Link, except it took him longer to realize he was the hero that was supposed to get rid of Ganondorf." Link in OoT comes to be known as the Hero of Time in one part of the timeline, not both. There never was a Hero of Time in TP's side of the timeline. There never was a hero at all (from a specific period of time before OoT until TP. We cant forget all the games that take place before OoT) But you're still phrasing it in such a way that you undermine TP's plot. Does the TGDT actually tell Link to go and kill Ganondorf? No, its something that he comes to terms eventually. He does not actually set out to kill Ganondorf until after the time skip. In that respect, its the same for Link in TP. He set out to save his friends, but quickly is told he is the Chosen Hero and must rid the land of the Twilight. Eventually Ganondorf comes in (and hey, he seems more like a God in that game anyways. Zant specifically called him one). Everything you said about Link's quest in OoT is pretty much the same in TP, minus the differences in the actual story and characters. I never said the fairies represented the Holy Spirit. "I should have mentioned that in the dream Link emerges from the ray of light with a fairy hovering beside him. Am I too far off to consider that this may be reminiscent of the dove coming down at the time of Jesus' baptism? Mathew 3:16, "Lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him." And by the way, Ganondorf knew of the prophecy and did attempt to kill Link when he was a newborn. His mother fled the city to save Link's life." That's where I got it, and that's also the base of my argument that Ganondorf could not know of this prophecy when Link was a baby because Zelda also was a baby. Even if we assume Ganondorf had the same prophecy, how in the world would he come up with the boy walking out of the woods was the same baby that he attempted to kill? (I'm not even sure it happened like that in the first place) Santuli: "Usuaully, when I read or watch something that is supposed to be a biblical allegory, all those references are more aparent and connected. And to be honest, I wouldn't have expected that from Zelda." Nothing. It was just to emphasize why I have such a hard time accepting this, not a counterargument. "And again, maybe it doesn't mean anything. A lot of medieval-esque games have knights with shields that have a cross. " Right, thats why I think those were just details that were added to give us more of a feeling of the medieval-esque setting. Eventually it was removed when more detailed sprites came along and the shields a little more important in the look of the hero and often the shield's own backstory. Notice that not even all the shields had a cross anyways. Many just had a little curved line or something simple like that. Others had nothing in particular. It's seems Santuli has also admitted that OoT IS "biblically allegorical". Just not as much as I think it is. Interesting... Not really. I accept some of the references you make, the ones I labeled "the most concrete evidence" in my last post, as the most possible, but don't really choose to believe they are actual allegories. I'm with link182 in that I too enjoy these rough debates. I hope no one's feelings have been hurt yet. Let me I have a history of getting into plenty of long debates. Zelda ones being my favorites and the ones I debate the fiercest (since they are my favorites, obviously). Sorry 'bout long post. You guys really dont have to apologize for that :p You can easily expect long posts in such debates. And this is a thread to discuss Zelda this way...well, actually to discuss Zelda's future, not OoT's similarities to the bible.. Wind June 27, 2008, 06:18 PM why are all of you comparing OoT to the Bible? that's just wrong Exactly. link182 June 27, 2008, 06:52 PM why are all of you comparing OoT to the Bible? that's just wrong Once again... I mostly agree, though you can't completely deny the inspiration constantly drawn from the Bible seeping into just about every medium of entertainment. For example, Doctor Leonard Samson gets his gamma-induced strength from the length of his hair, just like Samson of the Bible. And then there're other clear, definitive influences... But no one here is comparing OoT or any Zelda to the Bible, merely arguing about whether or not the Zelda series was inspired or influenced by the Bible. There is a big difference there. So then... shut up with the redundancy. It's like we're saying "red fish, blue fish" and you're hearing "one fish, two fish." Similar statements, but completely different meanings. Need I remind you of the definition of superficial? Wind June 27, 2008, 06:57 PM I think we're at a point where there's no point in arguing about anything else...
That's getting really annoying...  link182 June 27, 2008, 07:01 PM I think we're at a point where there's no point in arguing about anything else... It IS? Anyway, I'm fairly certain all my thoughts on Zelda's future have been submitted here already, so... anyone else got anything else I can agree/disagree with? Wind June 27, 2008, 08:07 PM Zora's are symbols for demons!1! Um, no.
chikalaka July 02, 2008, 10:30 PM Well, based on this article, I think very differently about Zelda.
OOT was okay, don't get me wrong, but ti was VERY link182 July 02, 2008, 10:34 PM Very... what? I think you got cut-off there in your po
chikalaka July 02, 2008, 10:45 PM Well, based on this article, I think very differently about Zelda.
OOT was okay, don't get me wrong, but ti was VERY tedious. I felt like I was playing a predictable version of ALttP. The seven sages was the worst part. And they did it again in FS and FSA. I think the sages thing is a little... Stupid. It was good the first time, but is old and weary now. Twilight Princess is my FAVORITE Zelda game. The plot was so origianl, and though the graphics were outdated, it felt more like I was in a story than a world. Link's eyes were especially good. They looked like someone had drawn them, and they were very well done. Another thing I liked that OOT lacked was that the people mattered. Everyone in TP helped out, atleast once. Even Mayor Bo did. Midna was especially nice. Link is just not complete wihtout a talking and responding companion who actually helps him instead of lectures him about where he should go next like Navi did. Not only that, but Midna was a person, as the adventure went on, she went from being a mysterious snob to someone who saw things in the long-run. Navi just fluttered around not caring about anything. Not to mention the world was so huge, you could spend half an hour rolling across Hyrule before you got anywhere. In addition to being huge, it was detailed. That's another thing. A land may have differences in terrain and buildings, yes, but the fact remains it is one land body. It doesn't go LEFT IS WATER. UP IS FOREST. RIGHT IS MOUNTAIN. CENTER IS FIELD. It needs to smooth together. Twiligiht Princess is an excellent example. Majora's Mask definitely needs more credit than it was given. The characters were so real. You coud choose to stomp through the land with your eyes closed, beating the boss and you wouldn't have to do any side quests. Even then, it was a good game. But doing the side quests, realzing there was more to a world than just a guy with a sock on his head, it made clock Termina to life. Anju and Kafei, those two made such an amazing story. And the postman, scared for his life, terrified on the last day as the moon fell to Termina, in OOT he would have magically dissapeared after saying the same line and standing stationary at the same mailbox for three days, but no. Instead, he continued to move, breath, exist. And the music was amazing. It was filled with odd xylophone rolls, bagpipes, and what sounded like a cat getting hit with a saxophone. It fit the mood of the game perfectly. Background music can't just be based off of one character, but the world as a whole. Majora's Mask nailed this. I honestly think MM and TP were the best Zelda games. I think if you take the high points of both of them, you would have a truly amazing game, no similarities to Ocarina of Tine required. Nintendo needs to turn away from Ocarina of Time if they truly want to outdue it- and in doing so, they will create what the Zelda games are supposed to be- legends. chikalaka July 02, 2008, 10:50 PM I wrote and revised and reread and still missed a serious point.
Voice-acting would be dangerous. Link has a different personality every game (though the differences are sutle) and you would have to find JUST the right voice for every character, especialy Link and Zelda. I think you could leave Link quiet. He could say some words, and still grunt. It would be like the Xbox game "Fable" everyone but the hero talks, but he still grunts and whines and says only a few words. I think that would work better than making everyone talk. Remeber, when Link talks, his personality is no longer up to the person controlling him, its up to Nintendo, and what Nintendo thinks is good may not ne what the world thinks is good. In addition, Link has had promblems with having a voice in the past. Look at the old cartoon show, and the CD-i games. It is pretty likely voicing Link won't work. link182 July 02, 2008, 11:32 PM Well, based on this article, I think very differently about Zelda.Wait, what? You decry the other games for the seven sages thing, but... doesn't TP have seven sages as well? Were you referring to the plot point of the seven sages or the gameplay aspect of the seven sages? Link's eyes were especially good. They looked like someone had drawn them, and they were very well done. Another thing I liked that OOT lacked was that the people mattered. Everyone in TP helped out, atleast once.Are you even playing the same games as everyone else? Not everyone in TP helped out, and I don't fully understand what makes you say this. Even Mayor Bo did. Midna was especially nice. Link is just not complete wihtout a talking and responding companion who actually helps him instead of lectures him about where he should go next like Navi did. Not only that, but Midna was a person, as the adventure went on, she went from being a mysterious snob to someone who saw things in the long-run. Navi just fluttered around not caring about anything. Not to mention the world was so huge, you could spend half an hour rolling across Hyrule before you got anywhere.Most people consider that last sentence to be a bad thing. "Wow, this game's so awesome that it takes me hours just to get anywhere at all! That's tubular!" If the dungeons, fighting and everything else was longer, fine, but when it takes an extremely long time just to get somewhere in the game it becomes extremely boring. And the repetitive landscapes made it even worse. In addition to being huge, it was detailed. That's another thing. A land may have differences in terrain and buildings, yes, but the fact remains it is one land body. It doesn't go LEFT IS WATER. UP IS FOREST. RIGHT IS MOUNTAIN. CENTER IS FIELD. It needs to smooth together. Twiligiht Princess is an excellent example....you're saying the other games DIDN'T do this? Well then, you're clearly mistaken. ALttP did this extremely well, making the environment feel incredibly alive. And if you're saying that TP did this to a different extreme... TP did it to a much lesser extreme than any other Zelda game. Majora's Mask definitely needs more credit than it was given. The characters were so real. You coud choose to stomp through the land with your eyes closed, beating the boss and you wouldn't have to do any side quests. Even then, it was a good game. But doing the side quests, realzing there was more to a world than just a guy with a sock on his head, it made clock Termina to life. Anju and Kafei, those two made such an amazing story. And the postman, scared for his life, terrified on the last day as the moon fell to Termina, in OOT he would have magically dissapeared after saying the same line and standing stationary at the same mailbox for three days, but no. Instead, he continued to move, breath, exist. And the music was amazing. It was filled with odd xylophone rolls, bagpipes, and what sounded like a cat getting hit with a saxophone. It fit the mood of the game perfectly. Background music can't just be based off of one character, but the world as a whole. Majora's Mask nailed this.I agree with you there at least. I honestly think MM and TP were the best Zelda games. I think if you take the high points of both of them, you would have a truly amazing game, no similarities to Ocarina of Tine required. Nintendo needs to turn away from Ocarina of Time if they truly want to outdue it- and in doing so, they will create what the Zelda games are supposed to be- legends."No similarities to OoT required"? Both of those games are almost exactly the same as OoT... And I personally think MM and WW were the best Zelda games, because they actually innovated instead of giving you the same exact gameplay over and over again. Just for poops and giggles, I'm going to rank my favorite Zelda games, in order of how much I like them. 1. Majora's Mask 2. Wind Waker 3. Link's Awakening/DX 4. Twilight Princess 5. A Link to the Past 6. Minish Cap 7. Oracle of Seasons/Oracle of Ages 8. Ocarina of Time 9. The Legend of Zelda 10. Four Swords 11. Adventure of Link 12. Four Swords Adventures The reason Phantom Hourglass is missing from the list? I haven't honestly played it. And TP and OoT are only ranked as highly as they are because of the fact that they are in 3-D. Really, I should probably have two different lists, one 2-D and one 3-D. Also, too lazy to quote your new post, but I agree with it. chikalaka July 03, 2008, 12:49 PM My whole post was comparing only OOT, MM, and TP. I hoped that cleared things up a little.
Zelda isn't going to do well if they just stick with 2-d worlds. They need an amazing 3-D one. What I mean by "No similiarites to OOT required" is they could live without Saria's Song, what looks like the remains of the Deku Tree, we don't need a red-headed girl who calls Link a fairy boy. That stuff may have been awesome in OOT, but we can live without it and still have an awesome game. Sure, we might have a remix of Zelda's Lullaby for Zelda, but that song has been around longer than OOT has. Again, I was only comparing MM and TP to OOT. ALttP had amazing landscape that I loved the first time I played it, and its a great example of what a hand-held game is, and is definitely one of Zelda's better games. However, like I stated before, Zelda can not survive on Handheld games. The sages thing. Well, Let's see. In ALttP you had to save the seven maidens who were descendents of seven sages. In OOT you had to awaken and save the new seven sages. In FSA you had to save the seven maidens who were descendents of the seven sages. It got a little old. That single cutscene in TP where the sages tried to lock Ganon away wasn't saving them, or awekening them, it was attempting to help make sense of the Zelda timeline. (Or entirely confuse us and laugh from afar) In TP the people were alot more important to Link's quest in OOT. In OOT, you were the hero who went through the land solving puzzles and la-dee-da. Since you were the Hero of Time apparently that set you out from having any important talks with anyone besides Sheik, the sages, Zelda, and -maybe- the people from the trading side quest. I thought that the people were there to fill in space, and they didn't really do much. In TP, alot fo people helped the plot move along, especially the Ordonians. In OOT, Sheik advanced you threw the game by teaching you warp songs and giving you hints. In TP, you had to help all these different people, hear there story, in order to get anywhere. For example, there was Telma, Shad, the other three people who helped you find Mirror pieces and the Mirror Chamber, the zora boy, Ilia, all of them you had to interact with and save/aid. Not to mention the little things, like saving Colin, teaching Talo how to use a sword, you had to cure a yeti's cold, so many things that OOT didn't have. The landscape... I think I wasn't clear... We can't have tiny worlds like in FSA or MM. MC Put it in the opposite direction and instead of making the world tiny, made you. Twilight Princess is one of the bigger Zelda games. And yet still, the whole landscape was great. There was grass, rock, caves, bridges, it was detailed despite its size. A big game is good, becaue if you can run across Hyrule in twenty seconds, its a little small. However. detail is just as important. MM, I think, showed this. If anything didn't make sense, just say. I have to get off now and do chores. I hope I offended no one and my post made sense. link182 July 03, 2008, 03:54 PM Zelda isn't going to do well if they just stick with 2-d worlds. They need an amazing 3-D one. What I mean by "No similiarites to OOT required" is they could live without Saria's Song, what looks like the remains of the Deku Tree, we don't need a red-headed girl who calls Link a fairy boy.Um... MM and TP already don't have those things... That stuff may have been awesome in OOT, but we can live without it and still have an awesome game. Sure, we might have a remix of Zelda's Lullaby for Zelda, but that song has been around longer than OOT has.Again, um... what makes you say "don't use this again" when it has never and will never be used again? I don't understand your logic. At all. Again, I was only comparing MM and TP to OOT. ALttP had amazing landscape that I loved the first time I played it, and its a great example of what a hand-held game is, and is definitely one of Zelda's better games. However, like I stated before, Zelda can not survive on Handheld games.Um... Zelda can survive on handheld games. People still buy the crap out of Zelda handhelds, and quite often they sell better than console games (not console Zelda, other console games)... The sages thing. Well, Let's see. In ALttP you had to save the seven maidens who were descendents of seven sages. In OOT you had to awaken and save the new seven sages. In FSA you had to save the seven maidens who were descendents of the seven sages. It got a little old. That single cutscene in TP where the sages tried to lock Ganon away wasn't saving them, or awekening them, it was attempting to help make sense of the Zelda timeline. (Or entirely confuse us and laugh from afar)So what if it's reused in every Zelda game? The fact is that outside of Twinrova causing chaos and destruction all over Hyrule, getting seven maidens or sages or descendants of the sages is the only way for Ganon to come back. So wouldn't you try to come back no matter what to accomplish your task if you could? And the fact the maidens or sages are saved or awakened in their sagedom (not a real word) helps to make sense of the timeline as well. i.e., if you pay attention to which games had it happened, you can easily deduce where most of the other games fit into the timeline. And as for the fact you referred to the gameplay aspect: it was a loaded question. The gameplay remains unaltered, as they are only seen in the story aspect. In other games you go through the dungeons, just not to save a sage or maiden. So the gameplay remains completely the same whether or not they have you go through the dungeon for one reason or another. In TP the people were alot more important to Link's quest in OOT. In OOT, you were the hero who went through the land solving puzzles and la-dee-da. Since you were the Hero of Time apparently that set you out from having any important talks with anyone besides Sheik, the sages, Zelda, and -maybe- the people from the trading side quest. I thought that the people were there to fill in space, and they didn't really do much. In TP, alot fo people helped the plot move along, especially the Ordonians.So... you're saying that they had more interactivity with the NPCs? Why didn't you just say so? In OOT, Sheik advanced you threw the game by teaching you warp songs and giving you hints. In TP, you had to help all these different people, hear there story, in order to get anywhere. For example, there was Telma, Shad, the other three people who helped you find Mirror pieces and the Mirror Chamber, the zora boy, Ilia, all of them you had to interact with and save/aid. Not to mention the little things, like saving Colin, teaching Talo how to use a sword, you had to cure a yeti's cold, so many things that OOT didn't have.Yes, TP is the far superior game story-wise, graphics-wise, and almost everything-else-wise. The landscape... I think I wasn't clear... We can't have tiny worlds like in FSA or MM. MC Put it in the opposite direction and instead of making the world tiny, made you. Twilight Princess is one of the bigger Zelda games. And yet still, the whole landscape was great. There was grass, rock, caves, bridges, it was detailed despite its size. A big game is good, becaue if you can run across Hyrule in twenty seconds, its a little small. However. detail is just as important. MM, I think, showed this.Yes, twenty seconds is a tad boring. But twenty minutes... You should have gotten the horse and horse call a bit sooner and the teleport a bit later to preserve gameplay. Wind July 06, 2008, 08:35 AM In TP the people were alot more important to Link's quest in OOT. In OOT, you were the hero who went through the land solving puzzles and la-dee-da. Since you were the Hero of Time apparently that set you out from having any important talks with anyone besides Sheik, the sages, Zelda, and -maybe- the people from the trading side quest. I thought that the people were there to fill in space, and they didn't really do much. In TP, alot fo people helped the plot move along, especially the Ordonians. In OOT, Sheik advanced you threw the game by teaching you warp songs and giving you hints. In TP, you had to help all these different people, hear there story, in order to get anywhere. For example, there was Telma, Shad, the other three people who helped you find Mirror pieces and the Mirror Chamber, the zora boy, Ilia, all of them you had to interact with and save/aid. Not to mention the little things, like saving Colin, teaching Talo how to use a sword, you had to cure a yeti's cold, so many things that OOT didn't have. Count all the people that helped the story move in TP. Then replay OoT and count all those who helped the story move in it. You'll find that there are far more in OoT. Also, you may say "Well Ocarina of Time didn't have a boy that you have to teach to fight with a sword". As you've said before, you dislike it when zelda games are similar to each other. Saint of Swords July 06, 2008, 08:39 PM I hope the next game in the series follows the classic feel of swords and magic. theres enough god/dess infested games out there, and enough series have turned into mechas
 !Madmaz186 July 06, 2008, 10:26 PM I just want a new deep battle system for Zelda.
And what do you mean enough series have turned into mechas? jonXjon August 06, 2008, 02:34 PM I think that Link doesn't need a voice it makes a mysterious feel to the games cause if Link can talk the game experience would change drastically because of it. You know CD-I? The WORST thing to happen to Legend of Zelda (even though it isn't classified as a Legend of Zelda Game thank god) the 2 games CD-I made were the worst things in the world and guess what it was the only 2 games with Legend of Zelda in it when Link could talk. Well with a voice not text and look at it it is obviously the WORST 2 games ever because the story line is very short and is pretty stupid and one of them you play as Zelda and she has a sword! What the heck? Well, what also made it worse was crap graphics in cutscenes. (they are the same as Hotel Mario's Cutscenes) What I want in a Legend of Zelda game is NO VOICE FOR LINK (maybe text but VERY little like Ok, No or stuff like that cause the game is more interesting and I can stay along with the story better. I do NOT want the 3 temples and then the Master Sword. It has been used to many times but I can live with it. And what I have noticed is that Bowser is the final boss in almost every mario game but NO ONE has complained about it but many have complained about Ganondorf almost always being the main enemy. What I want personally is Zant to return. It was a good break from ganondorf. Even though he was still the final boss. I really liked tthe Sword Combat in the final boss. But I still want the Triforce involved in the games. It is a vital part of the games. I like the gameplay for TP. I want that in there. Plus I want the return of Magic and Navi (or fairies) and not the crap faggot fairies in PH. So that is it.
thelegendofmeh August 06, 2008, 04:28 PM Weren't there 3 CD-i games
 Still... pretty much all of your post was already discussedebuch August 06, 2008, 05:26 PM I think that Link doesn't need a voice it makes a mysterious feel to the games cause if Link can talk the game experience would change drastically because of it. You know CD-I? The WORST thing to happen to Legend of Zelda (even though it isn't classified as a Legend of Zelda Game thank god) the 2 games CD-I made were the worst things in the world and guess what it was the only 2 games with Legend of Zelda in it when Link could talk. Well with a voice not text and look at it it is obviously the WORST 2 games ever because the story line is very short and is pretty stupid and one of them you play as Zelda and she has a sword! What the heck? Well, what also made it worse was crap graphics in cutscenes. (they are the same as Hotel Mario's Cutscenes) What I want in a Legend of Zelda game is NO VOICE FOR LINK (maybe text but VERY little like Ok, No or stuff like that cause the game is more interesting and I can stay along with the story better. I do NOT want the 3 temples and then the Master Sword. It has been used to many times but I can live with it. And what I have noticed is that Bowser is the final boss in almost every mario game but NO ONE has complained about it but many have complained about Ganondorf almost always being the main enemy. What I want personally is Zant to return. It was a good break from ganondorf. Even though he was still the final boss. I really liked tthe Sword Combat in the final boss. But I still want the Triforce involved in the games. It is a vital part of the games. I like the gameplay for TP. I want that in there. Plus I want the return of Magic and Navi (or fairies) and not the crap faggot fairies in PH. So that is it.I'm sure that any game that Nintendo makes with Link talking would be better than any CD-i game ever made... Okoa August 06, 2008, 09:50 PM Well, that goes without saying even if Link didn't talk.
ebuch August 07, 2008, 02:31 AM True, but do we want a change, or not? =/
link182 August 12, 2008, 03:00 PM The Question isn't what we want, it's whether we know what we want or not. For example, one may like something they thought they disliked after they actually try it out.
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